Simon silverdollarcircle
Well-known member
I'd argue that coil got better and better as they went on. They crashed out at a peak, but that was a good 20 years after they started
shitting on their own legend
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Simon silverdollarcircle
Well-known member
Primal scream I'd say have pretty much shit on any kudos they got from screamadelica by now.
rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
if no one has said them yet, public enemy.
i realise you cant really say anything bad about chuck d, but its obvious that after 1991 their run of great music (basically 3 classic albums and one near classic) had ended quite obviously.
def some okayish to awful stuff on muse-sick and respectably unambitious stuff on he got game, and then there's always something pretty okay about all the stuff theyve made since, but its just so just okay. they never did anything musically as good or unusual as before (nor visually, which might seem a small point, but that was always a part of the draw with PE too), and while you cant really fault chuck d in a sense - he at least has not (to my mind at least) compromised his ideology or said anything that contradicts what you want from him or think of him as representing, but at the same time, he rarely says anything that sparks the intellect beyond what you expect anymore. will always love the man but he also seems to have become more ossified in his thinking, and a bit cloudy in interviews, so sometimes its hard to know if there actually is even a point being made. less actively shitting on the legend, more just gently peeing around it.
i realise you cant really say anything bad about chuck d, but its obvious that after 1991 their run of great music (basically 3 classic albums and one near classic) had ended quite obviously.
def some okayish to awful stuff on muse-sick and respectably unambitious stuff on he got game, and then there's always something pretty okay about all the stuff theyve made since, but its just so just okay. they never did anything musically as good or unusual as before (nor visually, which might seem a small point, but that was always a part of the draw with PE too), and while you cant really fault chuck d in a sense - he at least has not (to my mind at least) compromised his ideology or said anything that contradicts what you want from him or think of him as representing, but at the same time, he rarely says anything that sparks the intellect beyond what you expect anymore. will always love the man but he also seems to have become more ossified in his thinking, and a bit cloudy in interviews, so sometimes its hard to know if there actually is even a point being made. less actively shitting on the legend, more just gently peeing around it.
Corpsey
bandz ahoy
Interesting how a lot of those named lost their magic when they attempted (often commercially successfully) to move with the times.
Nas, for example, (as I understand it) was critically feted for Illmatic but was commercially/culturally left behind in the era of The Chronic and Ready to Die. Hence getting the Trackmasters on board for It Was Written.
Dillinja obviously couldn't carry on making jungle after a certain point if he wanted to remain relevant and bookable. I read him in an interview saying that the kids who were coming to raves weren't into breakbeats anymore. They presumably hadn't grown up with the same hip hop as his generation had.
I guess you could call this selling out, but otoh I feel like sounds and styles are potent for a limited window of time so it kind of makes sense to change tack.
Not that this absolves them of being shat on for making crap music.
Nas, for example, (as I understand it) was critically feted for Illmatic but was commercially/culturally left behind in the era of The Chronic and Ready to Die. Hence getting the Trackmasters on board for It Was Written.
Dillinja obviously couldn't carry on making jungle after a certain point if he wanted to remain relevant and bookable. I read him in an interview saying that the kids who were coming to raves weren't into breakbeats anymore. They presumably hadn't grown up with the same hip hop as his generation had.
I guess you could call this selling out, but otoh I feel like sounds and styles are potent for a limited window of time so it kind of makes sense to change tack.
Not that this absolves them of being shat on for making crap music.
Corpsey
bandz ahoy
And then you get people like Wiley who - having failed to really break through with attempts at commercial singles - fall back on endlessly retreading their classic sound, with inevitably diminishing results.*
*This is based on a very patchy knowledge of what Wiley's made in the last few decades so feel free to call bullshit on it, Wiley acolytes.
*This is based on a very patchy knowledge of what Wiley's made in the last few decades so feel free to call bullshit on it, Wiley acolytes.
Corpsey
bandz ahoy
Hell on Earth is really good. Albeit not The Infamous.
There's some good tracks on Murda Muzik too. After that it was pretty much over, bar a few songs here and there.
They really suffered from Prodigy's (presumably health related) decline.
rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
changing with the time isnt necessarily bad. eg busta rhymes.
rap is pretty obsessed with supposed authenticity though so i know you did get people saying busta was lying, or not being true to himself, etc etc etc, he was still making good songs/singles.
with nas i think he had the bad luck to emerge just as hip hop was changing.
had he come out a year later, it would have been quite different.
illmatic is like the apex of a certain gritty new york rap, but actually a false dawn, as its not really indicative of him as an artist, or his career at least. it was just a fluke album, by an artist who never had the same idea for his career as all his fans, which is why they never understood why he ended up doing what he did. he was never interested in making more illmatic music. he wasnt cormega for example.
PE didnt try to change with the times exactly (apart from their first album, they never sounded like everyone else in the first place). their fault was becoming predictable and more typical.
rap is pretty obsessed with supposed authenticity though so i know you did get people saying busta was lying, or not being true to himself, etc etc etc, he was still making good songs/singles.
with nas i think he had the bad luck to emerge just as hip hop was changing.
had he come out a year later, it would have been quite different.
illmatic is like the apex of a certain gritty new york rap, but actually a false dawn, as its not really indicative of him as an artist, or his career at least. it was just a fluke album, by an artist who never had the same idea for his career as all his fans, which is why they never understood why he ended up doing what he did. he was never interested in making more illmatic music. he wasnt cormega for example.
PE didnt try to change with the times exactly (apart from their first album, they never sounded like everyone else in the first place). their fault was becoming predictable and more typical.
maxi
Well-known member
Wiley is funny too because he's the only artist I can think of who sold out but kept making music for his original audience simultaneously. and was at times open about it from what I remember. 'just ignore that stuff over there guys that's just for cash'
he had cheesy chart hits and instrumental 12"s on logan sama's label coming out around the same time. so funny. he didn't pretend the sellout stuff was the authentic him unlike many artists who seem to pretend even to themselves. that may have helped preserve his legacy a bit better than others, at least for a time.
he had cheesy chart hits and instrumental 12"s on logan sama's label coming out around the same time. so funny. he didn't pretend the sellout stuff was the authentic him unlike many artists who seem to pretend even to themselves. that may have helped preserve his legacy a bit better than others, at least for a time.
It's contentious, but I think at least me, third and mvuent would say Autechre have managed it, or thereabouts.
rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
wearing my rolex is one of his best songs though.
yyaldrin
in je ogen waait de wind
not that their music necessarily became better but given the reputation and status of their first albums i always thought that kraftwerk's later albums electric cafe and tour de france were really good.
maxi
Well-known member
never listened to any autechre until last year when i bought those two new albums and i really like them, that's a good sign
I would say Aphex Twin as well. Some of his best music has been since Syro i think
maxi
Well-known member
that was when he was just dipping his toes in. and it was at least made by a grime producer. I reckon they almost accidentally made a pop tune and when it did well that's what kicked off that whole electropop grime era with tinchy stryder and tinie tempah getting hits by emulating it
but it's more Cash In My Pocket w/ mark ronson and Heatwave and the albums from that time that stand out as the ones I remember, full on just of-the-moment pop songs with no grime connection whatsoever
Daughter of mc scallywag - spiral tribe/xenophobia - rushin' the house apparently.
phat choon tbh
linebaugh
Well-known member
I may be the only one who thinks this but Zach hill has been putting out good stuff for 20 years now.
I think the key to longevity is talented musicianship in the technical sense while maintaining the taste necessary to avoid said technicality bogging down your tunes
I think the key to longevity is talented musicianship in the technical sense while maintaining the taste necessary to avoid said technicality bogging down your tunes
blissblogger
Well-known member
i wish it could be said of Henry Cow that they shitted on their pwn leg end but they've probably acquitted themselves quite well
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Simon silverdollarcircle
Well-known member
I guess part of the problem is that things like grime are teenage music really. Of course Wiley can't make great grime tracks anymore he's even older than me! But then he's in a bind because what's the alternative? Trying to move away from all that collaborating with the likes of Damon albarn and appearing on jools Holland?
Actually I like Wiley's recent reinvention, of live streaming amapianot raves in parks, has been an amazing way to handle this conundrum.
I think where people don't shit on their own legacies it's often because their music was never so closely tied to wild teenage energy. Eg people like Ron Trent and Robert Hood, say, are still making good tracks but they always sounded "mature" to begin with
Actually I like Wiley's recent reinvention, of live streaming amapianot raves in parks, has been an amazing way to handle this conundrum.
I think where people don't shit on their own legacies it's often because their music was never so closely tied to wild teenage energy. Eg people like Ron Trent and Robert Hood, say, are still making good tracks but they always sounded "mature" to begin with