The Republican War on Transgender People, Drag Queens, and Queerness in General

[maxi]

But when literally every other group in the world use the acronym LGBT the exclusion stands out and strikes one as absolutely deliberate. This is such a disingenuous claim.

yeah course its deliberate. they take issue with the fact that they're always grouped together despite having different interests

 

[Mr. Tea]

yeah course its deliberate. they take issue with the fact that they're always grouped together despite having different interests

Ah yes, because homophobia and transphobia are completely unrelated to each other, and never come from the same people or groups, or anything like that.

 

[maxi]

Ah yes, because homophobia and transphobia are completely unrelated to each other, and never come from the same people or groups, or anything like that.

didn't say they're completely unrelated. but they have different interests and it makes sense to have dedicated groups. there are plenty of trans groups. e.g. Mermaids. there's one called "All About Trans". presumably you think they're homophobic because they don't include LGB?

 

[droid]

Were they explicitly set up to oppose gay rights?

 

[maxi]

which trans rights do you think LGB alliance is explicitly set up to oppose

 

[maxi]

I'm sorry, you said that they weren't 'exclusionary in a malevolent sense' when the entire focus of their campaign has been to oppose trans rights, from opposing Scotland's GRA to opposing the inclusion of trans people in conversion therapy bans, to opposing the treatment of gender dysphoria in children, to their explicit identification of trans rights as a threat that will lead to the "extinction" of lesbians.

But yes. I agree that if you cant see that an organisation which is an almost cartoonish example of astroturfing and was specifically set up to oppose trans rights, claims trans people are an existential threat and campaigns almost solely on trans issues is anti trans - then we do have very different conceptions on what the facts are, or indeed what constitutes a fact.

I didn't see this post before. ok so with the conversion therapy thing, the things that are described as conversion therapy include basically anything that doesn't immediately affirm a teenager's self-declaration as trans. so if a therapist questions why they might feel that way, that's considered conversion therapy, wrongly. there are all kinds of reasons why a teenage girl for instance might want to opt out of being a woman these days, especially if she's gender-nonconforming and lots of her peers are doing it. questioning these things isn't conversion therapy. she may realise down the line that actually it's OK to not be an example of stereotypical femininity and she's no less of a woman/girl because of it. this happens already and there are growing numbers of detransitioners. when puberty blockers and a pathway to irrevocable surgery is on the table, it's all the more important to question.

 

[droid]

Answer the question.

You have compared Mermaids to the LGB Alliance. Whatever your opinion of the former, it is a charity set up to help Trans people, not in opposition to any other group.

The other is an organisation that was explicitly set up to oppose trans rights, as has been outlined here and can be verified with even the laziest reference to a multitude of credible sources.

Your refusal to engage honestly with any of the substantive points raised, again calls into question your good faith.

 

[CorpseysEvilTwin]

I didn't see this post before. ok so with the conversion therapy thing, the things that are described as conversion therapy include basically anything that doesn't immediately affirm a teenager's self-declaration as trans. so if a therapist questions why they might feel that way, that's considered conversion therapy, wrongly.

ok. then we shouldn't consider any teenagers declaration of being gay accurate. Are you willing to grant that, my fellow interlocutor? after all, it could be a fad in todays day and age, when incel ideology is on the rise and there are many reasons for a boy to want to pretend to be gay, even if it ruins the lives of his family and friends.

and don't give me the puberty blockers excuse, it is scaremongering to assume that the nhs is handing them out like sweets.

If you think sexual orientations aren't a fad, then you have to argue that the concept of sexual orientation is not a modern concept. Except it is. You can't take the bits of religious thinking you like and discard those bits you don't. This is what biscuits does, he wants to be an atheist whilst being trad, and its not possible.

 

[maxi]

ok. then we shouldn't consider any teenagers declaration of being gay accurate. Are you willing to grant that, my fellow interlocutor? after all, it could be a fad in todays day and age, when incel ideology is on the rise and there are many reasons for a boy to want to pretend to be gay, even if it ruins the lives of his family and friends.

and don't give me the puberty blockers excuse, it is scaremongering to assume that the nhs is handing them out like sweets.

being gay and trans are different things. like I said earlier I think a lot of the confusion here comes from false parallels between the two. and attempts to make it seems like a repeat of the same rights movement. bringing phrases like 'conversion therapy' in to describe a completely different thing than gay conversion therapy is an example of this

I don't think they're handing them out like sweets

 

[CorpseysEvilTwin]

being gay and trans are different things. like I said earlier I think a lot of the confusion here comes from false parallels between the two. and attempts to make it seems like a repeat of the same rights movement. bringing phrases like 'conversion therapy' in to describe a completely different thing than gay conversion therapy is an example of this

in terms of agency, they're not. born this way ideology is just that, ideology. One chooses to be gay, one is not born gay, whatever that means. at best one could say that they are born a sodomite, (incoherent but whatever) but even that itself does not indicate being gay, or anything to do with gay culture.

Which is where the whole anti-trans rhetoric chimes in with the 70s and 80s moral panic about 'gay paedophiles.'

So for your position to be coherent, a gay person must be questioned as to their orientation because its a choice they've made of their own agency.

 

[CorpseysEvilTwin]

where the double irony of pseudo-secular theocrats like biscuits come in. on one hand they would like to lambaste people like padraig for being advocates for eugenics, yet they are in a feverish and hopeless quest to find the gay gene.

 

[maxi]

in terms of agency, they're not. born this way ideology is just that, ideology. One chooses to be gay, one is not born gay, whatever that means. at best one could say that they are born a sodomite, (incoherent but whatever) but even that itself does not indicate being gay, or anything to do with gay culture.

Which is where the whole anti-trans rhetoric chimes in with the 70s and 80s moral panic about 'gay paedophiles.'

So for your position to be coherent, a gay person must be questioned as to their orientation because its a choice they've made of their own agency.

being gay isn't medicalised with potentially irrevocable consequences, so that's one significant difference.

the blanket policy of affirming a teen self-identifying as trans is effectively questioning their sexual orientation. because where that person may just be, say, a gender-nonconforming lesbian girl struggling with their identity, they are now taken to be a heterosexual boy with no scrutiny. which isn't what's necessarily best for them in the long run. I'm not saying therapists should be telling anyone 'you're not trans' - that's not how any good therapy works. but just asking them how they feel about it and what's led them to that point isn't conversion therapy. but this is what activists are attempting to ban.

 

[CorpseysEvilTwin]

being gay isn't medicalised with potentially irrevocable consequences, so that's one significant difference.

You speak of potentially irrevocable consequences, yet then will concede that the trans regret rate is low, less than 3% and then will also say that puberty blockers are not being handed out like sweets. So which one is it? Either it is a prolonged process with consultation at all points, or suddenly 13 year old boy takes puberty blockers and is on estrogen.

Also, being gay might not have medical consequences, but it can have some rather severe social consequences, especially if one is raised in conservative or religious household. How can you then say that there is a 'trans trend' but gay people should just suck it up if they regret being outed?

the blanket policy of affirming a teen self-identifying as trans is effectively questioning their sexual orientation. because where that person may just be, say, a gender-nonconforming lesbian girl struggling with their identity, they are now taken to be a heterosexual boy with no scrutiny. which isn't what's necessarily best for them in the long run. I'm not saying therapists should be telling anyone 'you're not trans' - that's not how any good therapy works. but just asking them how they feel about it and what's led them to that point isn't conversion therapy. but this is what activists are attempting to ban.

I think you're just substituting your own feelings here. What is to say that a girl is attracted to men and wants to become a trans man to pursue homosexual desire? None of your hypotheticals mean anything apart from your own anxieties on the topic. And as I said upthread, sexual orientation is desire, thereby choice, thereby agency.

It is just assumed that kids are irrational and irresponsible, and are wont to change their mind, as if the same qualities cannot be imputed to adults. If people took this line of thinking wrt child abuse by parents, then nothing would be investigated.

 

[droid]

You speak of potentially irrevocable consequences, yet then will concede that the trans regret rate is low, less than 3% and then will also say that puberty blockers are not being handed out like sweets. So which one is it? Either it is a prolonged process with consultation at all points, or suddenly 13 year old boy takes puberty blockers and is on estrogen.

And ofc, this is an exceptionally low rate. 10% of parents regret having kids. 65% of cosmetic surgery recipients regret their procedures with 83% saying they would never have plastic surgery again. The regret rate for knee surgery is 6-30%.

If regret rate for irreversible surgery is the main factor of concern then why aren't there campaigns to ban rhinoplasty, the most common surgery in teens, particularly teenage girls with about 30,000 patients between 13-19 receiving nose jobs each year in the US?

 

[droid]

Just imagine, 30,000 innocent teens subjected to appalling disfigurement every year in an effort to indulge some passing fantasy about their identity and self-image. This rampant nosing of our kids must be stopped and the doctors who participate in these atrocities jailed.

 

[maxi]

you're just putting things in extreme terms and leaping to conclusions about what I think. I haven't said loads of the things that either of you are claiming I've said. I'm getting tired of all the emotive personalisation of everything too. "your own anxieties" etc. this is all getting really pointless now

 

[maxi]

I don't think it's a good thing that thousands of teenagers are feeling the need to get nose jobs every year. do you? a result of our hyper image-focused culture. it doesn't mean I'm saying it should be banned though, nor am I saying trans surgeries should be banned

there is a difference in significance though, between rhinoplasty and surgery that will leave someone infertile or unable to have an orgasm. do you not think?

 

[droid]

Sorry to give you the wrong impression - Im not willing to engage with someone who poses question after question but refuses to answer direct questions put to them or engage substantively with well sourced evidence, and accuses others of being motivated by internalised transphobia whilst whinging about 'emotive personalisation'. Your debating style is like a textbook example of a bad faith argument.

 

[CorpseysEvilTwin]

you're just putting things in extreme terms and leaping to conclusions about what I think. I haven't said loads of the things that either of you are claiming I've said. I'm getting tired of all the emotive personalisation of everything too. "your own anxieties" etc. this is all getting really pointless now

if you're getting tired of the emotive personalisation then stop talking about your hunches and your feelings. Opinions are by nature emotive personalisation. You can't get around this, you can just decide to employ the facts, which you don't want to do.

 

[shakahislop]

it is weird how this topic drives everyone mad, everywhere on the internet, it has specific countours that have provoked the same discussion that we're having in this thread on every medium. not to minimise the reality coz its not academic. but one of the things that's going on with the discussion i think is that its a technology of dispute