El-B

B

Blackdown

nexKeysound
Tim F said:
It's not revisionist to mention it, but I think it is to talk about it to the exclusion of everything else - let us not forget the peerless "Stone Cold"! Or "Holiday (Da Vibe)"! And his remixes of Dane Bowers and Shanks & Bigfoot... But maybe if people vibe more off the dark noir elements of the Ghost releases they aren't gonna appreciate those so much...
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If we're looking back on the GC back cat there are so many classics like Stone Cold or his remixes of Myron and Damage. They're masterpieces, and I for one appreciate them just as much as the darker Ghost material.

and Logan, yes a lot of people wanted to sound like El-B, but to say every track in 2004 sounded like him, well it's just not the case.

Broken Fist: yes El-B had a track on Tempa called 'Amazon.' he also pioneered dubstep with his Ghost productions from 2000 onwards, but as Tim is so keen to point out, his earlier 2step material as half of Groove Chronicles is also peerless.
 
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Tim F

Well-known member
i should note that i love the Ghost releases, I'm not trying to imply that they're somehow lesser at all. It was very exciting back in 2001, waiting for new releases and hearing all the ideas bounce back and forth between El-B and his coterie, Horsepower Productions, Zed Bias...

I also love some of the El-Tuff stuff, esp. the awesome dub of Ladies First's "I Can't Wait".
 
K

Keith P

draw for the drumstick
Tim F said:
i
I also love some of the El-Tuff stuff, esp. the awesome dub of Ladies First's "I Can't Wait".
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Yeh big tune but I couldn't really say it had much to do with what was happening in croydon at the time. Its pretty safe to say that Karl Brown was completely removed from the spectrum of ghost , horespower, tempa releases IMO.
 
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B

Blackdown

nexKeysound
i'm still trying to work out your overall point, tim? that GC material is appreciated by dubsteppers less than Ghost - well probably, but then the very basis for dubstep was a rejection of some of the prevailing 2step elements, esp r&b and house, so it stands to reason...

btw there was masses of that El-Rox-Tuff stuff, mostly unreleased, and it's awesome too. i love the fact most of it was made from samples of Frank Sinatra records bought from charity shops. it's proto-Akufen with extra swing!
 
Grievous Angel

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
BTW I'm looking forward to a reunification of r'n'b vocals with dubstep riddims.

Not to mention some female MCing (beyond Pressure).
 
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stelfox

Beast of Burden
i still think el-b's remix of mutiny's the virus was the best thing he ever did, ghost releases included. this is a true desert island disc of mine.
 
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Tim F

Well-known member
"i'm still trying to work out your overall point, tim? i'm still trying to work out your overall point, tim? that GC material is appreciated by dubsteppers less than Ghost - well probably, but then the very basis for dubstep was a rejection of some of the prevailing 2step elements, esp r&b and house, so it stands to reason..."

I don't know if I have an overall point beyond what I've already posted. As I said previously, it's probably not so surprising that dubstep fans would find Ghost material more compelling as it's darker and more stripped down. I could try to reclarify my original statement but I think obsessively restating it will only make me appear much more hardline about this than I am...

"Yeh big tune but I couldn't really say it had much to do with what was happening in croydon at the time. Its pretty safe to say that Karl Brown was completely removed from the spectrum of ghost , horespower, tempa releases IMO."

This is probably true, although back in 01/early 02 it really felt like four to the floor was an across-the-board flava! What with proto-grime tunes like "Standard Flow" and "Dutty"... And then you had a lot of the dubsteppers and breaksteppers putting out a couple of one-off four-beat tunes as well - although truth be told I don't know if <i>any</i> of them succeeded in that score, they always struck me as closer to slowed-down drum & bass more than anything else, like Technical Itch played at the wrong speed. El-Tuff seemed felt like a bit of a compromise position, twitchy and ruff like the new 4-beat stuff but still indebted to Todd Edwards et. al.
 
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stelfox

Beast of Burden
well, i'm not really in any position to, am i?!
but it does rather astound me that people can be so openly, knuckleheadedly dismissive of the very things that were absolutely at the core of 2step, which is, in turn, at the core of dubstep, especially vocal reminders of its roots in soul and r&b as much as reggae.
it's very much a white boys' club now, emphasis on both words.
i'm sort of with tim here. the reason i loved el-b so much was his ability to blend these elements with a much darker d&b-style aesthetic, same as early horsepower stuff. i didn't see these producers as reacting against 2step, but taking it somewhere else.
going deeper but still maintaining a line to the surface, if you like.
now dubstep owes much more, in terms of its audience and its aesthetic, to idm and techno.
and that's not necessarily slagging it off, either, but it does make it a lot less exciting for me, given all the other stuff i like.
 
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Grievous Angel

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
Oh yeah, it's easy to see the dubstep echo of techno's vibes. That's why dubstep needs to maintain its connection with reggae and dancehall -- to ensure the sound and the scene remains hybrid. And it's a connection which, judging by the BASH night, is being enthusiastically prosecuted by dubstep producers.
 
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Tim F

Well-known member
It is sad to think that the Ghost stuff is so hard to hear these days. At least with most of the Groove Chronicles stuff or tunes like "Digital", you can find old comps floating around with those tracks in the mix.

On a related note, when did the old Hyperdub site go down? I used to enjoy going back and relistening to its old mixes like the awesome "21st Century Skank" mix, which blew my mind the first time I heard it.
 
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Blackdown

nexKeysound
stelfox said:
well, i'm not really in any position to, am i?!
but it does rather astound me that people can be so openly, knuckleheadedly dismissive of the very things that were absolutely at the core of 2step, which is, in turn, at the core of dubstep, especially vocal reminders of its roots in soul and r&b as much as reggae.
it's very much a white boys' club now, emphasis on both words.
i'm sort of with tim here. the reason i loved el-b so much was his ability to blend these elements with a much darker d&b-style aesthetic, same as early horsepower stuff. i didn't see these producers as reacting against 2step, but taking it somewhere else.
going deeper but not still maintaining a line to the surface, if you like.
now dubstep owes much more in terms of its audience and its aesthetic to idm and techno.
and that's not necessarily slagging it off, either, but it does make it a lot less exciting for me, given all the other stuff i like.
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it is frustrating to see new fans from an IDM/techno background who hate r&b, 2step and all it stands for. that is definitely knuckleheaded-ness.

But instead of a r&b and 2step background, there's now an interface with grime and dancehall, through respectively FWD>>/Skepta/Skream/Kode 9 and Digital Mystikz/Bash. This should help keep the balance.

as a footnote, Loefah explained how Timbaland was so influential in his forging of the halfstep template with 'Horror Show'. you can still hear the resonance of Timba's drum programming in 'Mud,' though it's far harder of course.
 
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jay-s

Active member
what scares me most is that 2 step haters from the drum'n'bass scene like dubstep as it is now :confused: i suppose that's because it's indeed white boys' music now, just like drum'n'bass.
 
B

Blackdown

nexKeysound
people from d&b tend to like breakstep a lot, people like Search & Destroy etc, which has more distortion and rushy vibe to it.
 
L

Logos

Ghosts of my life
stelfox said:
well, i'm not really in any position to, am i?!
but it does rather astound me that people can be so openly, knuckleheadedly dismissive of the very things that were absolutely at the core of 2step, which is, in turn, at the core of dubstep, especially vocal reminders of its roots in soul and r&b as much as reggae.
it's very much a white boys' club now, emphasis on both words.
i'm sort of with tim here. the reason i loved el-b so much was his ability to blend these elements with a much darker d&b-style aesthetic, same as early horsepower stuff. i didn't see these producers as reacting against 2step, but taking it somewhere else.
going deeper but still maintaining a line to the surface, if you like.
now dubstep owes much more, in terms of its audience and its aesthetic, to idm and techno.
and that's not necessarily slagging it off, either, but it does make it a lot less exciting for me, given all the other stuff i like.
Click to expand...

I can see your point - though to state the obvious I would say musical developments always have a history. The half-step, Youngsta/Loefah style developed because producers were attempting to find a way out of the Hatcha/Benga 2002 clipped minimal style - which owed a hell of a lot to Ghost. That style still had the direct line to the swing of garage, and you can still hear it in new Benga tunes. Its just how things developed, I honestly don't think the sound we hear now owes much to the current idm/techno/dnb converts because that hasn't had time to filter through, its much more about the evolution of the sound amongst a really small group of people who are massively aware of their history but at the same time are pushing for the new.

Also I think its not just Ghost stuff but Stone Cold, 1999 and Black Puppet which are massive for the post-garage sound just because they were out and out DARK.

Just an aside, yes El-B was on the first dubstep allstars but I think 'Amazon' was an old track even when that was released?
 
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