El-B

[mms]

well, i'm not really in any position to, am i?!
but it does rather astound me that people can be so openly, knuckleheadedly dismissive of the very things that were absolutely at the core of 2step, which is, in turn, at the core of dubstep, especially vocal reminders of its roots in soul and r&b as much as reggae.
it's very much a white boys' club now, emphasis on both words.
i'm sort of with tim here. the reason i loved el-b so much was his ability to blend these elements with a much darker d&b-style aesthetic, same as early horsepower stuff. i didn't see these producers as reacting against 2step, but taking it somewhere else.
going deeper but still maintaining a line to the surface, if you like.
now dubstep owes much more, in terms of its audience and its aesthetic, to idm and techno.
and that's not necessarily slagging it off, either, but it does make it a lot less exciting for me, given all the other stuff i like.

this argument would be polemic if it was true, perhaps the references to reggae are more london/metropolitan rather than skin colour orientated,
which in turn has become a little bit unimaginative after countless tracks of what seem like re-versions of reggae songs,
but then again i don't really see any audience and aesthetic closer to idm and techno because it doesn't contain r and b and soul elements.....(when has idm or techno really been 'close' to reggae any more than r and b or soul?'
but in relation to the 'audience', i've never seen you at dmz and not very often at fwd..so you can't really back your arguement up there.

so who's the audience for grime as well , largely it's more of a mix crowd like dubstep but just a more fashionable eastend 'indieish ' crowd rather than a dance/reggae crowd. The idea of singalong anthems is a powerful in indie and grime, dubstep and grime cross at energy/production and back again to reggae.

 

[BrokenFist]

oh no, black music that actually sounds like black music!

Hey, I love black music but modern R&B vocals really turn me off. They've already taken over grime and I'm not looking foward to the idea that the same thing might happen to dubstep.

 

[Tim F]

BrokenFist, you should hunt down the following tunes:

Horsepower Productions - One You Need
2 Banks of Four - Hook and a Line (Zed Bias Remix)

... both awesome examples of (proto)dubstep with female vox.

 

[Blackdown]

got out some El-B classics last night. nearly broke my neck in appreciation - he's still a certified badman!

 

[stelfox]

(when has idm or techno really been 'close' to reggae any more than r and b or soul?)

what is this about? it doesn't make any sense in the context of what i'm saying.
and there's a very good reason as to why i don't go to dmz (apart from it being in south london, which i avoid wherever humanly possible) and that's because the music really bores me, for many of the reasons stated above. i like the odd track, but a whole night of it would kill me and i know that through trying to listen to mixes of it - it just doesn't work for me any more and i did qualify my statements by saying that this was "given the other things i like".
i have been going to forward since it was at the velvet rooms, though. yeah, there was a of just over a year where i didn't go at all (which by your reasoning must have been when you *started going* because i'd never seen you there before!), again because i wasn't finding any thrill in it and invested my time in stuff i thought and still think more worthwhile. however, the addition of decent MCs and switching up the styles a bit has helped it no end lately.
all the same, please dude, don't come the "you aint out every night, so you don't know" thing with me because that really doesn't work (half the people i have any respect for who talk about this stuff have never even been to england!). i've done my homework and don't talk shit for the sake of it. these are *personal perspectives* and as such are not the definitive word on anything, but they're certainly thought out.

 

[mms]

what is this about? it doesn't make any sense in the context of what i'm saying.
and there's a very good reason as to why i don't go to dmz (apart from it being in south london, which i avoid wherever humanly possible) and that's because the music really bores me, for many of the reasons stated above. i like the odd track, but a whole night of it would kill me and i know that through trying to listen to mixes of it - it just doesn't work for me any more and i did qualify my statements by saying that this was "given the other things i like".
i have been going to forward since it was at the velvet rooms, though. yeah, there was a of just over a year where i didn't go at all (which by your reasoning must have been when you *started going* because i'd never seen you there before!), again because i wasn't finding any thrill in it and invested my time in stuff i thought and still think more worthwhile. however, the addition of decent MCs and switching up the styles a bit has helped it no end lately.
all the same, please dude, don't come the "you aint out every night, so you don't know" thing with me because that really doesn't work (half the people i have any respect for who talk about this stuff have never even been to england!). i've done my homework and don't talk shit for the sake of it. these are *personal perspectives* and as such are not the definitive word on anything, but they're certainly thought out.

what a massive overreaction to a perfectly reasonable question. which has now ended up in 'personal perspectives' played out into 'who wsa there first' upmanship and snide comments which it seems to me you're trying to use to back me out of this thread.

when you are claiming that dubstep is now closer to idm and techno and the audience reflects that - i'm asking you for the proof and also where you think reggae fits into idm and techno which you claim as well as reggae the scene is now closer too. i'm also saying if you came down to dmz you'd find a very mixed crowd both in terms of skin and gender so you can't say it's all white boys as from the core of people that go to the biggest dubstep night and the performers (whether you dislike the music or not) this is untrue.

they aren't personal perspectives at all if the facts say different. also we've only met each other once and that was last year so you wouldn't have recognised me anyway

 

[stelfox]

i'm asking you for the proof and also where you think reggae fits into idm and technowhich you claim as well as reggae the scene is closer too.

where do i say that? (and i still don't understand quite what you're saying.)

and ok, i'm willing to cocede that the crowd at dmz might be more diverse than i think it is, but one of the main reasons i stopped going to forward for just over a year, about 2 years ago, apart from the music turning pretty dull, was because of the crowd: overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly male, with lots of head-nodding and weed-smoking going on and a dance floor virtually empty. pretty much exactly the same crowd you'd find at a def jux show, which are also soul-manglingly boring for the most part.

 

[mms]

you've completley misunderstood and i can't be fucking bothered

 

[tate]

where do i say that?

Presumably here:

i didn't see these producers as reacting against 2step, but taking it somewhere else. going deeper but still maintaining a line to the surface, if you like.
now dubstep owes much more, in terms of its audience and its aesthetic, to idm and techno.
and that's not necessarily slagging it off, either, but it does make it a lot less exciting for me, given all the other stuff i like.

It's the "now dubstep owes much more in terms of its audience and its aesthetic to idm and techno" that perhaps raises the odd eyebrow

 

[echevarian]

Yeah somebody better tell Coki that he's making music for white boy IDM heads.

 

[stelfox]

Presumably here:

It's the "now dubstep owes much more in terms of its audience and its aesthetic to idm and techno" that perhaps raises the odd eyebrow

well, i just can't see how anyone can deny this shift and it's not necessarily a bad thing either. hell some of the stuff kode9 is doing reminds me more of porter ricks and rhythm and sound than it does m-dubs, and i'm sure he'll take that as the compliment it's meant to be.

and, marcus, my above statements are not to one-up anyone, but if i'm told that i don't have the right to an opinion because i haven't been seen in the right places i'm sure as eggs going to call that out. it's not as though i don't have a relatively strong background in this stuff.

 

[bassnation]

well, i just can't see how anyone can deny this shift and it's not necessarily a bad thing either. hell some of the stuff kode9 is doing reminds me more of porter ricks and rhythm and sound than it does m-dubs, and i'm sure hell take that as the compliment its meant to be.

and kode9 has never denied the massive influence of basic channel, rhythm and sound etc. in fact in that last interview he put it on a par with jungle as an influence.

 

[stelfox]

i know these things, you see

 

[nomos]

Yeah somebody tell better tell Coki that he's making music for white boy IDM heads.

I doubt he's under any illusions about his audience. DMZ have already been on a Rephlex comp and they're about to release a couple of 12"s on hip-reissuer Soul Jazz. I also think the "whiteboy IDMer" (or whiteboy hipster, etc, etc.) is a bit of a strawman.

 

[stelfox]

the same soul jazz imprint that releases stuff by the likes of sutekh and kit clayton...

 

[Blackdown]

and kode9 has never denied the massive influence of basic channel, rhythm and sound etc. in fact in that last interview he put it on a par with jungle as an influence.

to be honest grime is the driving influence to me on kode's stuff. dont get it confused with Burial's stuff, which sounds like it could be Pole influenced, and while is released by Kode, isnt made by him.

 

[bassnation]

to be honest grime is the driving influence to me on kode's stuff. dont get it confused with Burial's stuff, which sounds like it could be Pole influenced, and while is released by Kode, isnt made by him.

not to contradict you martin, cos you know this scene infinitely better than i do - but he does talk about these artists (along with grime & jungle) as influences on the interview you posted up on your blog.

fukkaz has a sort of rhythm & sound style pulse running through it - although i understand this is an old tune.

but appreciate what your saying re. burial.

 

[Blackdown]

i know he likes basic channel (who doesn't!), but their sonic trademarks (dubbed out space, crackles, sound-as-music) i dont hear as a primary influence in his sound.

 

[bassnation]

i know he likes basic channel (who doesn't!), but their sonic trademarks (dubbed out space, crackles, sound-as-music) i dont hear as a primary influence in his sound.

you don't have to slavishly copy something for it to be an influence - but your right, his stuff is much more steppin than all the techno dub.

 

[baboon2004]

Going back to the roots of the post-garage dark dubstep sound, where does Oris Jay fit in? I remember his (as Darqwan) 'Said the Spider' being massive around 2001 (?) And as someone said upthread, surely 'Sound of Da Future' was a key tune in marking the popularity of 'dark garage'/split from where 2 step and 'crews control' garage were going...