Why Conspiracy Theories?

[luka]

Even in the centre. The left is conspiratorial in essence and at origin.

 

[luka]

But events like Brexit are profoundly traumatic to the centre. And in the wake of trauma you scrabble about looking to rationalise and understand what has happened.

 

[shiels]

Sure go all the way and say abstract thought is conspiratorial at origin

any origin story. Any causal relationship

conspiratorial thinking as a powerful and fundamental part of our psyche that ramps up under stress and instability

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

The problem is the more someone does 'research' particularly as an amateur into any given topic, the more likely they are to be completely catastrophically wrong.

that's certainly not true. the more technical the topic, the more difficult it is for a non-expert to arrive at an informed opinion, but most things are pretty easily the grasp of anyone who wants to put in the time and effort. the better documented something is - which generally coincides with how popular conspiracy theorizing about it is - the easier it is to track down to track down original claims. the difference is in learning about something to try to arrive at an informed opinion, or at least trying to be aware of your preconceptions about it, and to put it in your words, looking for information to bolster a position.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

it's difficult in a sense bc you're usually going to be confronting true belief with doubt, but that's how it is. I think that thread @john eden posted is good because the guy (mostly) isn't vocally judging people, but simply letting their claims speak for them. the more amorphous a grand narrative is the harder it is to refute, but at some point people are going to have to make actual claims and in most cases it's not that hard to discern how seriously they should be taken.

 

[pattycakes_]

Gets complicated when you take into consideration the actual on record conspiracies. CIA & drugs, Gladio, MK Ultra, Epstein. All of these would be perfect fodder for ridicule until they became true...

 

[luka]

The other way to conceptualise it is to say once there is no centre, no received opinion, no accepted wisdom, everything becomes conspiracy theory

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

conspiratorial thinking as a powerful and fundamental part of our psyche that ramps up under stress and instability

I think rather the need to understand things is a fundamental part of the psyche, and conspiratorial thinking is a particular subset of that need contingent on given external circumstances, which some people are probably more prone to than others

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

The other way to conceptualise it is to say once there is no centre, no received opinion, no accepted wisdom, everything becomes conspiracy theory

there doesn't need to a center for some things to be more likely than other things

 

[pattycakes_]

I mean if the US are prepared to send insurgents to other countries to South America to topple regimes they don't agree with, why wouldn't they be doing the same kind of thing on their own soil? There are plenty of people who don't support them. They need to be managed

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

The truth is that most actual conspiracies are quite mundane – kickbacks, insider trading, collusion, tax avoidance – but poring through the Panama Papers or learning the nuts and bolts of how lobbying works is much more boring than fantastic tales about the New World Order in whatever form pulling all the strings, which is unfortunate because those mundane conspiracies have serious negative effects and they tend not to get the attention that wild-eyed stuff does unless there's a particularly sensational case like Bernie Madoff. that focus on the sensational also distorts and more importantly diminishes the actual horrific examples that do exist - the Tuskegee experiments, MKUltra, etc - by placing them on equal footing with fantasist nonsense. possibly worst of all, focus on outlandish overarching conspiracies elides mundane conspiracies that actually exist around the same events. "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" isn't a conspiracy. CIA officers destroying videotapes of interrogators torturing detainees and documents pertaining to torture in order to avoid repercussions is a real conspiracy.

it's a more boring but also more accurate view of the world. I mostly stay out of threads like this bc what's the point in repeating yourself but I guess it's good to reaffirm once in awhile.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

CIA & drugs, Gladio, MK Ultra, Epstein. All of these would be perfect fodder for ridicule until they became true...

I would again, point to all of these as evidence that it's difficult for large groups of people to keep secrets

 

[yyaldrin]

you just need a bit of marx and some books on imperialism to get an idea of why and how things happen. but you don't get these books in school unfortunately.

 

[thirdform]

Obviously one of the fun things about today is the way the right are appropriating the weapons of the left. When I was in school we learned all about how the powerful men of the right are in control of the media and use it to disseminate their views and to control the narrative and the boundaries of the sayable.

now @vimothy says it's actually the left in control of the media and the right which is denied a voice. There are innumerable examples of this switch.

this is true inasmuch as the left is more right wing than say the tory party was in 1945

 

[Leo]

The other thing about research Barty mentioned the other day in relation to mixed biscuits, it indicates a need to bolster the position, constantly.

you seem to have become Barty's dissensus proxy, regularly relaying his thoughts about what people are currently posting here. he can actually come back and do that himself, since he's obviously here reading things.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I would again, point to all of these as evidence that it's difficult for large groups of people to keep secrets

This is why I think adherents of the 9/11-inside-job and faked-moon-landing conspiracy theories would do well to consider that Stalin knew about the Manhattan Project before Truman did.

 

[IdleRich]

There's nothing you can do.

Brain washing by hypnotism or possibly a lobotomy might do the trick...

 

[DannyL]

I would again, point to all of these as evidence that it's difficult for large groups of people to keep secrets

As an aside, re. JFK the only thing I've ever read on it is a little book by Robin Ramsey, who is a JFK expert, and actually has read all the literature. He thinks LBJ dunnit and identifies the shooter etc. His hypothesis fits perfectly with the idea you describe - it's the inverse in fact. He points to a very small number of people around LBJ as being responsible, a classic small style conspiracy.
This is the book: https://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/who-shot-jfk.htm

 

[Leo]

the sheer level of human incompetence and inefficiency in any large-scale operation also works against lots of conspiracy theories. the larger the scale and the more organizations involved, real life tells you it's less likely it will be able to pull off what's required. with trump's cries of voter fraud, it would require stealth precision coordination between hundreds of people at dozens of different state election boards, many of which are run by Republicans, in states which all have different voting laws and procedures. add in people at Dominion for the voting machines, and thousands of reporters who all synced their operations to pull off the greatest voter fraud imaginable.

anyone who's worked in any large company or organization has witnessed how difficult it is to plan, coordinate and execute any large-scale initiative. there was a NY Times story this summer about people at the NY board of elections who would sit in their office and watch Netflix shows most of the day or take four-hour lunch breaks, highly unlikely they'd be motivated or capable of pulling off the crime of the century.

 

[kumar]

The truth is that most actual conspiracies are quite mundane – kickbacks, insider trading, collusion, tax avoidance – but poring through the Panama Papers or learning the nuts and bolts of how lobbying works is much more boring than fantastic tales about the New World Order in whatever form pulling all the strings, which is unfortunate because those mundane conspiracies have serious negative effects and they tend not to get the attention that wild-eyed stuff does unless there's a particularly sensational case like Bernie Madoff. that focus on the sensational also distorts and more importantly diminishes the actual horrific examples that do exist - the Tuskegee experiments, MKUltra, etc - by placing them on equal footing with fantasist nonsense. possibly worst of all, focus on outlandish overarching conspiracies elides mundane conspiracies that actually exist around the same events. "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" isn't a conspiracy. CIA officers destroying videotapes of interrogators torturing detainees and documents pertaining to torture in order to avoid repercussions is a real conspiracy.

it's a more boring but also more accurate view of the world. I mostly stay out of threads like this bc what's the point in repeating yourself but I guess it's good to reaffirm once in awhile.

i agree to an extent, forensic detail and laborious legal appeals are obviously very boring. but we've all read our kodwo eshun and all listened to our drexciya and so we can all understand how thrusting these mundane events into a wide lense mythological plane can give you a much clearer picture of how the world works without necessarily burdening you with the guilt of trump being elected. i mean the middle passage and generations of plantation slavery were interminably mundane, but that doesn't quite get the experience across.

focus on sensational over mundane conspiracies can be very dangerous i agree, but whos to blame for the focus. someone needs to pore through the panama papers and learn the nuts and bolts of lobbying but then someone else has to sex them up and convey them with the appropriate drama and intrigue if you're going to win people over from what youre complaining about.

doesnt look like this stuff is going to go away and probably especially not by shaking a howard zinn book at the kids.