Where have the UFOs gone?

[noel emits]

One problem is that pretty much anything is refutable these days. Exactly what would be considered proof beyond doubt? Not just to you but to everyone?

Even then it's open to interpretation.

I think observations that UFO phenomena so often seem almost deliberately baffling and absurd is one of the keys to understanding what goes on. I'm also down with Jung's view that they sometimes represent visitations from the over-soul of humanity - like a manifestation of out desire for transcendence and redemption.

 

[noel emits]

I also like Mac Tonnies ideas about what he calls Crypto-Terrestrials. That we might be sharing the planet with another intelligent species - and they are deliberately making their activities look like those of supposed extra-terrestrials. Makes some sense I think.

Also very interesting I think is the chemical / drug connection. DMT / Salvinorin in particular. I recently read Rick Strassman's book 'DMT The Spirit Molecule' which covers his clinical research into DMT. Some of the experiences reported by the test subjects in that study are incredibly interesting from many many points of view but in particular with regard to alien phenomena.

 

[krankissey]

this crypto-terrestrials idea sems a lto like the john keel theories that theres a species or many species with us here now that just like to fuck with us.

also: RAW says that ufos should be viewed as a human/ufo continuum just like space/time

 

[krankissey]

there are loads of reasons why people 'see' or want to believe in this stuff.
there are tons of pychological reasons, and physical ones why people believe in aliens, i mean it's hard not to wish it's true eh? there is a ton of research out there too, in loads of different areas.

wouldnt wishing things into physical existance be a major scientific breakthru?

 

[mms]

wouldnt wishing things into physical existance be a major scientific breakthru?

can you explain??
like some kinda mass esp?

 

[mms]

One problem is that pretty much anything is refutable these days. Exactly what would be considered proof beyond doubt? Not just to you but to everyone?

If one thing has caused another thing, and that thing is an unidentified flying object or an unidentified atmospheric object , then one thing has still caused another thing, it's unidentified until you find out what it is.
ufo's are often quite easily proved to be caused by man or nature, if the beholder is not looking to just go - 'hey look it's a flying saucer.'

this subject, like on this board can't really be taken seriously if people just talk shit about quantum physics, the dogons and dmt.

 

[noel emits]

If one thing has caused another thing, and that thing is an unidentified flying object or an unidentified atmospheric object , then one thing has still caused another thing, it's unidentified until you find out what it is.
ufo's are often quite easily proved to be caused by man or nature, if the beholder is not looking to just go - 'hey look it's a flying saucer.'

mms, I was responding to zhao above when he asked this very reasonable question: "why have I not personally encountered either UFOs and aliens directly or have seen with my own eyes any UNDENIABLE, IRREFUTABLE, CLEAR AS DAY evidence, be it a video or photograph or anything. ANYTHING."

It's a good question - I realise that UFO just means an unidentified object but I think what zhao is asking, or at least the interesting question implied here, is what exactly would constitute irrefutable proof of the existence of extra-terrestrial, crypto-terrestrial, or even trans-dimensional aliens? It's worth thinking about. All I was saying was that if an apparent alien walked up to you and said 'hello', zapped you with a raygun and took you to a flying saucer you could still come up with numerous explanations for how that might appear to happen without the involvement of any genuine ETs.

this subject, like on this board can't really be taken seriously if people just talk shit about quantum physics, the dogons and dmt.

The DMT thing doesn't so much relate to UFOs (although it might), as to alien abduction experiences. There are startling parallels, it's absolutely worth considering. As for quantum physics, as current understanding of quantum physics strongly suggests that consciousness has a part to play in physical reality it is not completely ridiculous to say that the hopes, dreams and fears of humanity as a whole may in some way manifest as visible phenomena.

UFO phenomena are complex, mysterious and elusive, and yet they still won't quite go away. I think the subject has to be approached from many angles. To dismiss any of those things (Dogon included) (as shit no less!) is premature and unsophisticated.

 

[noel emits]

there are loads of reasons why people 'see' or want to believe in this stuff.
there are tons of pychological reasons, and physical ones why people believe in aliens, i mean it's hard not to wish it's true eh? there is a ton of research out there too, in loads of different areas.

wouldnt wishing things into physical existance be a major scientific breakthru?

I don't think that's what mms was saying there krankissey? But the thing is, a lot of the time UFOs don't seem to quite exist. Often it's as if they occupy some weird kind of hinterland between hallucination and reality. To me that makes it more feasible that some of these things at least are born of a kind of unconscious psychological projection made almost manifest.

 

[noel emits]

By the way, not to go on and on, but with the drug thing - just because drugs are involved doesn't mean to say that the entities are not real, or even that actual travel to other planets / universes is not taking place.

 

[mms]

By the way, not to go on and on, but with the drug thing - just because drugs are involved doesn't mean to say that the entities are not real, or even that actual travel to other planets / universes is not taking place.

sure and then there are the parallels with chaos magick etc..
then there is the night hag issue which has been addressed in several other threads
but you have to also look for things that aren't mysterious entities etc, but a plastic bag, or a plane with interesting lights.

 

[noel emits]

Of course, and I think it's important to try and avoid having too much bias one way or the other in this matter.

In a way though I think it's almost too easy to debunk and doubt - consensus will always be heavily weighted towards, consensus!

One thing that I think I can say for certain is that UFOs constitute an array of different phenomena. There is not just one thing going on. Even it's just plastic bags and hallucinations.

 

[mms]

Of course, and I think it's important to try and avoid having too much bias one way or the other in this matter.

In a way though I think it's almost too easy to debunk and doubt - consensus will always be heavily weighted towards, consensus!

i'd always try and bias myself towards the idea that an unidentified flying object is just that really.

 

[noel emits]

Sure, but that just means you don't want to think about it - "Oh look a flying object, I'd better not wonder what it is, can of worms that."

Some flying objects remain unidentified because they behave in ways that are very difficult to explain, and are often attended by other weird effects. If such aberrant occurrences resist efforts at being squeezed into predefined grids of what is possible and real then it's reasonable to start considering stranger possibilities I think.

 

[mms]

Sure, but that just means you don't want to think about it - "Oh look a flying object, I'd better not wonder what it is, can of worms that."

Some flying objects remain unidentified because they behave in ways that are very difficult to explain, and are often attended by other weird effects. If such aberrant occurrences resist efforts at being squeezed into predefined grids of what is possible and real then it's reasonable to start considering stranger possibilities I think.

i can't really be bothered to talk to people who either put words into my mouth or suppose what is clearly not what i'm talking about.
like anything else - you have to be able to not make up a load of shit to explain or justify anything.

 

[noel emits]

i can't really be bothered to talk to people who either put words into my mouth or suppose what is clearly not what i'm talking about.

I can (be bothered), clearly. The whole of this page (12) has you misconstruing what I'm saying, and accusing me and others of 'talking shit'. I'm still trying to carry on the discussion, are you saying you won't talk to people if you think they've misunderstood you?

like anything else - you have to be able to not make up a load of shit to explain or justify anything.

I'm not making anything up at all, but I do try to keep an open mind. These mysteries are fun and intriguing, and I believe there are many aspects to them, some mundane, some maybe not so.

 

[mms]

I can (be bothered), clearly. The whole of this page (12) has you misconstruing what I'm saying, and accusing me and others of 'talking shit'. I'm still trying to carry on the discussion, are you saying you won't talk to people if you think they've misunderstood you?

Bollocks i can't be bothered anymore.
i've tried to give more constructive arguments, facts, research than any of the new agey stuff, space invaders dreaming that most people apart from matt mason are dealing in, and i've kept an open mind to what are reasonable ways of looking at things and not just making stuff up like almost everyone else on this thread, i've stated what i think again and again but the feelings of people here are if you don't side or can pick apart alot of the fucking nonsense that has been quite often spouted on this thread you're the enemy - who'da thunk?
i'm not just going to agree with any poorly thought out fluffy old pile of shit just so you can call me open minded. that is a pile of tarty old hippy dogshit and i'm not having it.

 

[noel emits]

Fine, but (taking this personally) what exactly is it that you think I think or believe mms? Really? Have I said I believe in the existence of aliens? What? Give me one example of where I've come out with unverifiable, poorly thought-out statement in this thread?

Who says you have to 'side' or agree with any of it? I'm sure most people accept that the first thing to do with unexplained phenomena is to try and explain them in the usual ways. If you can't then it might at least be interesting, and perhaps useful, to explore some unusual possibilities. It doesn't mean you have to believe in any of it.

 

[noel emits]

I'm not really concerned with any of this anyway. What really got me interested in this discussion was that question "What would it take? What would constitute irrefutable proof for the majority of people that something very unusual was going on?" Just that, not saying anything is going on.

 

[noel emits]

Dr. Rick Strassman's book if anyone is interested. This concerns his FDA/DEA approved University of New Mexico study into DMT experiences in the 90's.

http://brainsturbator.com/pdf/DrRickStrassman-DMT-TheSpiritMolecule.pdf

 

[Parson]

lets consider for a moment that there is technology that we don't understand yet

lets also take a moment to consider that life flying around in UFOs probably has some technology we don't have

so if it was possible for matter to become so highly energized that it loses mass and visibility, it would account for many of the questions surrounding ufos including:

why they appear to be there, but not there
how they can be visible and then invisible
why they often appear luminous
how they can approach the speed of light without traveling through time, or distorting mass
how they can change direction at thousands of miles per hour without dying
why they appear on cameras that can see into the near uv spectrum and remain invisible in the visible light spectrum
why people who have experienced close encounters have had severe retinal damage to their eyes, as well as burn damage on their skin