thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Good reply, thank you for engaging.

What I hear emerging from the "mediocrity" in indie is more like the beautiful, human moments in Detectorists than anything machine-like, transportive. More in tune with myself, with my humanity; made to feel something; instead of transported out of my body or the emotion drummed out.

You're right though I feel little need for my mood to be adversarial more often than, say, a blue moon.

Well in terms of beauty (it's a problematic category as it were but let's run with it) the microtonal tonalities in middle eastern music, and blues derived musics, those bending notes, that melisma, those indicate fragility, vulnerability to me. Like sobs caught in your throat. That for me is the human aspect of my listening.


There is a lot of discipline in stuff like this, you could say its imperfect in that way, but I think a lot of popular music criticism today tries to find some place to (over)fetishise psychic damage. To me, what is more subversive is to express pain with a kind of disciplined dignity. You might be at an all time nadir but society demands you function (it demands this as much for the indie artiste as the turkish classical singer.) But what I think one can do by readjusting the gradiants of where despair and pain are looked for is to have a music criticism that escapes the trap of being a surrogate literature and can have a more genuine interaction with contemporary every day life, rather than being a xerox copy of an undergraduate sociology lecture.

Whereas with that Emily song you posted, what I hear is so many wrong notes trying to be right notes, rather than embracing it like the best post-punk, free jazz or noise music. I'm very much not a music traditionalist, as many have said on this forum a lot of the stuff I evangelise for is very amusical. But I think it surrenders to that fact.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Not to get into a whats whiter contest but electronic dance music is a black creation. Indie is pretty unique for a musical form in that it was a white creation
And this is why it's so awful. Fucking white people in 4 piece bands and so much cultural space given over to boring on about them. It's such a conservative form and so absent of everything that makes the UK an interesting place to live.
 

sus

Moderator
Not to get into a whats whiter contest but electronic dance music is a black creation. Indie is pretty unique for a musical form in that it was a white creation
Jazz has deep roots in the Western classical tradition via ragtime.

The blues are a co-creation of Irish and English balladry, on the one hand, and slave work songs.

Synthesizer music and sampling and vocoders started as an artsy white person thing, etc etc

This isn't trying to take credit away from black musicians. It's just that the simplistic "black people invented all good music and white people copied them" narrative is as stupid and reductive and simplistic as the narrative of black primitivism/raw-but-untrained creativity that preceded it.

Novelty is born out of hybridity. Not "black genius" born of hardship and secondhand citizenship. Let's not be stupid romantics here and repeat 19th C racial mythologies ad nauseum in the name of progressivism
 

sus

Moderator
What Van Dyke Parks and Newson share is a tweeness. I'm not opposed to sappy sentimental strings, I quite like say, The Loving Spoonful "Darling Be Home Soon") - I generally think psych is improved by a orchestra - but there's something quite neutered about VDP and Newson is just... I don't know, it's partly the voice.
Right—you don't fuck with its vibe, its reputation, its aura, it's too sentimental, etc. It's all about mood affiliation, mood orientation, whether she's holding the right social posture. There's no distance. Whereas the Loving Spoonful isn't taken seriously by anyone, so it's safe to like with some distance and detachment.
 

sus

Moderator
I find it very easy to slip into thinking that she should just shut up and make way for something with a bit of sonic aggression. It's this offcentre strange world of music where black people don't exist or so it feels to me.
I think we're drilling the right direction here, because your comment echoes Thirdform's about wanting an adversarial mood.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
There's no way you're gonna tell me that indie music is "church for white people" and rave music isn't lmfao

Dance culture epitomizes secular religious activity

I don't deny that. We all have our secular religious activities of choice. But rave music has a much more broader, universal remit. When was the last time an indie band merged RZA with garage, and 90s alt rock? Of course this is not possible, because post-punk was the last music where these conversations were happening, white kids cribbing licks off dr. alimentado and Sly Stone.

If anything, if I had to find someone to blame for this, it would be Morressey, his nauseating outbursts are really besides the point. The Smiths were a sonically reactionary band.
 

sus

Moderator
To me, what is more subversive is to express pain with a kind of disciplined dignity. You might be at an all time nadir but society demands you function (it demands this as much for the indie artiste as the turkish classical singer.)
I agree, that's why I think Joanna Newsom is great, because she maintains her dignity through the sorrow.

Whereas with that Emily song you posted, what I hear is so many wrong notes trying to be right notes, rather than embracing it like the best post-punk, free jazz or noise music. I'm very much not a music traditionalist, as many have said on this forum a lot of the stuff I evangelise for is very amusical. But I think it surrenders to that fact.
I think you're mistaking her intentionality and her singing control, and mistaking what's in fact rich expressive dynamism for shoddy technique.
 

sus

Moderator
I don't deny that. We all have our secular religious activities of choice. But rave music has a much more broader, universal remit. When was the last time an indie band merged RZA with garage, and 90s alt rock?
Garage-rock/hip-hop hybrids are all over white culture, especially LA/SoCal + NYC culture.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I don't know - I don't want to say I'm just demanding aggression and that's the only frequency I want in music. It's more I resent and dislike the hegemonic status of indie which only exists because of the race and class position of those making it.
 

linebaugh

Well-known member
Jazz has deep roots in the Western classical tradition via ragtime.

The blues are a co-creation of Irish and English balladry, on the one hand, and slave work songs.

Synthesizer music and sampling and vocoders started as an artsy white person thing, etc etc

This isn't trying to take credit away from black musicians. It's just that the simplistic "black people invented all good music and white people copied them" narrative is as stupid and reductive and simplistic as the narrative of black primitivism/raw-but-untrained creativity that preceded it.

Novelty is born out of hybridity. Not "black genius" born of hardship and secondhand citizenship. Let's not be stupid romantics here and repeat 19th C racial mythologies ad nauseum in the name of progressivism
I do think it is that simple sometimes though. Hip hop started after a riot put tons of free equipment in peoples hands and anyone whose ever messed around with these machines or in fruity loops knows that 80s hip hop beats are the first thing you make accidentally because thats how these machines sound in unskilled hands. So you can credit the makers of the synths but that feels a little like crediting the lute in a history of rock music. Same goes for dance I think, but Im less knowledgable here. I dont think phuture was all that influenced by musique conrete when he made acid trax
 

sus

Moderator
What I'm trying to get at, and where I think we can make progress, is that this isn't about technical ability. We have to set aside the whole "indie is talentless, sloppy, music" paradigm. Because while I can cede that for plenty of indie rock bands, it's clearly not the case for an act like Joanna Newsom, or like Dirty Projectors for that matter. Their technical ability is beyond question.

No, like DannyL or you Third have pointed toward, this is about vibe. Which is why voice is so crucial to comments bashing Newsom or the Projectors. Because the voice is the medium of persona, which is to say, mood/vibe/sociological demographic, etc
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I guess music offers the possibility to journey away from your starting point i(n terms of class and race) or build on it somehow if you're from a nonwhite background. The way you want to argue for her feels like the opposite. I feel like you want to reinforce where you are, and stick that at the top of the hierarchy.
 

sus

Moderator
I don't know - I don't want to say I'm just demanding aggression and that's the only frequency I want in music. It's more I resent and dislike the hegemonic status of indie which only exists because of the race and class position of those making it.
This is absurd. You're reacting to a cultural hegemony that ended in like 2008. And which is nowhere to be found on this board or in high culture.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Garage-rock/hip-hop hybrids are all over white culture, especially LA/SoCal + NYC culture.

I wasn't talking about garage rock though. I was talking about the black and gay sound of the paradise garage in New York, and its mutation in the UK into 2step.
 

sus

Moderator
This is so fucking weird that DannyL (and others) want to turn my a discourse around an incredibly talented songwriter into a race thing, as if her career "only exists" because of she's white and pretty. It's the same shit as upthread.

What's fucking weird is how obsessed this board is with black culture as a be-all end-all only-show-in-town. It's fucking weird and racialized and gives me the creeps.
 

sus

Moderator
K-punk, since you quote Carl Impostume's blog post -- where he describes musician Joanna Newsom's "slapability" and her "punchable" face, and says that he would "have to kill her" were he actually to read the interview with Newsom in Wire -- let't read the entire post:

from Impostume, Thursday, October, 2006, quoted by K-punk above . . . http://theimpostume.blogspot.com/2006/10/couple-of-things-1-bloody-simon.html:

Carl Impostume: "2) I’ve never heard Joanna Newsom but think I can assert without fear of contradiction from even the most staunchly loyal of her advocates that she has a profoundly irritating face. A degree of punchable winsomeness and self-satisfied artsy-slapability not seen since Bjork pig-tailed and boss-eyed her way into the public mind. Do these two share a missing chromosome? I suspect that if I actually read the interview then I’ll later have to kill her. This is why I should not buy The Wire."

In my world of colleagues, friends, and family, we have words for people who express such sentiments as those cited by Impostume, words which include: thug, sexist, coward, and intellectual fraud. I think that insecure male, vile, and loser might also apply.

Though I have already made myself clear, I will again say that in my opinion, the utterly subjective procedure of deciding upon someone's "smugness," "self-satisfied artsy-slapability," "missing chromosomes," and the like, on the basis of magazine photographs -- and then to base an expression of physical violence against a fellow human being for said imaginary traits -- belongs to a person who could only be described as an intellectual zero.

Out of curiosity, K-punk, do you agree with Impostume's post in its entirety, since you quoted it?

It goes without saying that none of what I have said here has anything whasoever to do with the quality of Newsom's music, which is another issue entirely.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
This is so fucking weird that everyone wants to turn my a discourse around an incredibly talented musician into a race thing, as if her career "only exists" because of she's white and pretty. It's the same shit as upthread.

What's fucking weird is how obsessed this board is with black culture as a be-all end-all only-show-in-town. It's fucking weird and racialized and gives me the creeps.

Yes but you can say that because you will never be barred from entering a concert venue.
 

sus

Moderator
I guess music offers the possibility to journey away from your starting point i(n terms of class and race) or build on it somehow if you're from a nonwhite background. The way you want to argue for her feels like the opposite. I feel like you want to reinforce where you are, and stick that at the top of the hierarchy.
Growth is one way to talk about it. This from DannyL: black people should stop listening to black music and voyage into indie; it'll be good for their growth.

Of course I put things I value at the top of the hierarchy. That's what a value is. How else would you make a judgment? I value certain moods, I value smart lyrics worth listening to and thinking about, I value beauty, and so I put at the top of my hierarchy songs that exemplify them. And let's not pretend this is some racial thing—I love Beverly Glenn-Copeland for very similar reasons as I love Joanna Newsom
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I'm not even talking about Newsom. Would foals or Arcade Fire be a better example? It's a certain subculture. One which on one hand you want to assert but also to deny.
 
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