Stalked!

[nomadologist]

Also, sometimes it's not as easy. Sometimes there's no forensic evidence left behind, i.e. rape doesn't always mean penetration.

A girl I knew from my home town was raped by most of the basketball team at a party at her college, only she was forced to give them oral sex (at the threat of violence) instead of penetrated. When she reported it to the school authorities, they threatened to expel her for "underage drinking" (she had smoked a joint and had a beer or something) if she pressed charges. Nothing was done to the assailants. So she left the school and her parents are still trying to find a way to press charges, or at least sue them for damages after for the years of mental distress she suffered (she can't hold a job either, has severe social anxiety disorder now.)

 

[nomadologist]

this statement says to me that what you mean is a certain type of anger and hatred is gender specific, correct me if i'm wrong, i think there are particularly male types of hatred and anger which might be the ego ideas that boil down to why men kill themselves, which you mentioned before, maybe suggesting that misanthropy is cast by gender is a little strong, which i'm sorry if you got the wrong idea about , but all these symptoms of malaise have circumstances and cultural frameworks do they not, most of these things have some generally identifiable root causes.

no, i'm saying in that quote that women dislike certain ways in which the world works because it feels oppressive, and no one seems to want to change them. this anger is pointed very specifically at certain phenomena (like how difficult it is to get a rape conviction), not some sort of generalized hatred of "the world."

 

[swears]

I think a large part of the problem is that men who would never commit an act of sexual violence or rape find it very hard to imagine why somebody else would. So we do tend to imagine these occurances as anomalies and downplay how common they are. Rape becomes something you read about in the news, not something that happens in "everyday" life.

 

[Gabba Flamenco Crossover]

I wasn't calling YOU a creep--don't flatter yourself to think I'd actually care WHAT you are. (that is what i meant)

Again, flattery doesn't come into it. But you said men are creeps - no qualifications. I'm a man, so therefore that's aimed pretty firmly at me. If I said 'women are sluts', and you objected, and I tried to back out of it by saying I hadn't called you a slut specifically, I'd look more than a little pathetic, wouldnt I? Not saying that they're on a par with each other as insults, but I think the principle's the same.

Not in the U.S. Here the problem is usually that the defense turns the issue into he said/she said, smears the victim in court, and the general attitude of the jury of peers is "women who wear miniskirts late at night are asking to get raped."

Well, that happens a lot in the UK too. But the only reason juries get a chance to act on those kind of prejudices is because they are being acted to interpret the meaning of an act, rather than just confirm that it took place and allocate responsibility for it. I think a criminal trial is the wrong forum for decision of that nature to be taken - maybe cases should be decided by a panel of experts, who interview each victim several times and then confer to reach a verdict. But then, again, the right to trial by jury is a central tenet of the justice system, and with good reason.

A girl I knew from my home town was raped by most of the basketball team at a party at her college, only she was forced to give them oral sex (at the threat of violence) instead of penetrated. When she reported it to the school authorities, they threatened to expel her for "underage drinking" (she had smoked a joint and had a beer or something) if she pressed charges. Nothing was done to the assailants. So she left the school and her parents are still trying to find a way to press charges, or at least sue them for damages after for the years of mental distress she suffered (she can't hold a job either, has severe social anxiety disorder now.).

That is absolutely fucked up. If that's the kind of thing you've experienced a close quarters, I can't blame you for being so passionate about this. I hope I'm not being complacent, but I think that kind of jock culture is much less common in the UK than in the US. If the school authorities here tried to cover up something like that, there would be total shitstorm. The people who tried to cover it up would get fired, and it's highly unlikely they'd ever teach again.

 

[nomadologist]

If I said 'women are sluts', and you objected, and I tried to back out of it by saying I hadn't called you a slut specifically, I'd look more than a little pathetic, wouldnt I? Not saying that they're on a par with each other as insults, but I think the principle's the same.

If you said that, and I thought you meant it, I wouldn't bother replying because it would say more about you than about "women." Wouldn't it? I thought it would pretty obvious that I was joking, being sarcastic, but I guess not.

Rape and incest are incredibly common in my experience, mostly because I grew up in a very economically depressed area very near the poverty line. The worst part about the sex crime epidemic is that it mostly strikes those whose defenses are weakest--the lowest of the lower middle class and the impoverished. Of course it seems like a problem that's in the news when it's so much a problem with how "the other half lives..." I've heard some stories from nurses that would make your stomach turn about child molestation and children coming the ER with injuries sustained from sex abuse.

(there was a soldier on a military base near my house convicted for raping his 3-month-old son, for one...i read that in the news when i was 14 or 15 and nearly vomitted)

 

[Guybrush]

We have a very low conviction rate here over here, as well. Mostly because of the difficulty of proving that the sexual act was not voluntary. Assault rapes are another story, but they are far less common. Maybe I should add that we don’t have a jury system here, and that it, in general, takes a lot of evidence to get someone convicted; the sentences are also ridiculously short, by American standards (in modern time, no one has been behind bars for more than 25 years, for example).

However much I dislike examinations of rape victims’ sexual life (and digging into victims’ past in general, for that matter), I can imagine that they are often important—however nasty—in deciding how likely it is that the act was voluntary.

The jockey episode is horrendeous; their culture seems truly rotten.

 

[mistersloane]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6331517.stm

Just read a great fact that in America in 1990, depression cost the economy 43.7 billion dollars.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?h..."The+economic+burden+of+depression+in+1990."+

Which means if everyone in the US got depressed via the State, they could bring down the economy.

That BBC story I was just going to post on. They basically - indecent pictures of 'children' aside ( children is kids of up to 16 in the UK ) - were done on a thought crime. It seems they pleaded fantasy in court but it wasn't deemed good enough. Obviously posting that I'm looking at the good side, rather than the bad side, which is that they really were gonna do it. It's a really weird case though.

 

[Mr. Tea]

This case is absolutely horrible. I just saw in the paper this morning they were talking online to each other about 'doing a Holly and Jessica'. Bollocks to 'fantasy', it looks like they were actually planning to do it, and you can't just let them go on the basis that they 'might not have intended to do it really'.

 

[nomadologist]

This is always a weird issue in terms of being an apologist for non-violent pedophiles--looks more and more like predatory sexuality is just that, and these goons always graduate to reality when the fantasy loses its novelty. The fantasy is, unfortunatley, just practice for the real thing.

"To Catch a Predator" is on every week in the U.S., and it really drives that point home. It's a show where they lure pedophiles online, then set up a "meeting" and lure them into a house, catching them on camera. First, a good portion of them are what anyone would guess to be decent men, rabbis, clergy, lawyers, doctors, teachers. What's so sad and weird is how often so many of them will try to argue for how they weren't going to do anything wrong even when the reporters are shoving transcripts of disgusting chat conversations and shit in their faces. One guy they even got to walk into the house naked and he just stood there arguing that he wasn't going to do anything wrong to the 10-year-old boy. I just can't believe these predators really think that 10-year-old kids go online to hook up with old predators--like, why don't they see it coming? They must really want to believe...

 

[nomadologist]

Just read a great fact that in America in 1990, depression cost the economy 43.7 billion dollars.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?h..."The+economic+burden+of+depression+in+1990."+

Which means if everyone in the US got depressed via the State, they could bring down the economy.

I solicited donations for this one scientist who is a huge part of the "treat depression" lobby in the U.S., and his new strategy is to use bottom line thinking to get conservatives serious about it as well. I think he laid out the facts and figures regarding how much lost time/productivity at work results from untreated depression, and he's doing really well raising money for his research. He's an incredible person anyway, took his Nobel money and made a yearly prize for female scientists with it.

 

[nomadologist]

However much I dislike examinations of rape victims’ sexual life (and digging into victims’ past in general, for that matter), I can imagine that they are often important—however nasty—in deciding how likely it is that the act was voluntary.

I completely disagree. It doesn't matter if you've been a prostitute for 15 years--if you said no, you said no. Nothing from your sexual history can make it ok for a person to have sex with you without your consent. Period.

 

[nomadologist]

The jockey episode is horrendeous; their culture seems truly rotten.

Yeah, but blaming one segment of our culture is not enough, either. It's not just jocks who are rapist/pedophiles/sexual predators. You can find them in all walks of life, all tax brackets, all classes. The higher their income, the harder to convict them, usually, for issues relating to class and perceived decency or gentlemanly-ness on the part of juries.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Yeah, but blaming one segment of our culture is not enough, either. It's not just jocks who are rapist/pedophiles/sexual predators. You can find them in all walks of life, all tax brackets, all classes. The higher their income, the harder to convict them, usually, for issues relating to class and perceived decency or gentlemanly-ness on the part of juries.

I can't help but think that guys that are into an excessively macho, fratboyish culture are more likely to do something like that than guys who aren't, though. Although I'm sure you're right that there are 'respectable' rapists too, I guess you only have to look at the ongoing debacle with the Catholic church to see that.

 

[nomadologist]

I think it's a complete myth that jock types are more likely to be rapists in general. I think statistically they're more likely to commit "date-rape", but I'd have to look it up. The worst sexual harassment I ever endured came from a highly successful corporate lawyer who worked for a very very impressive company and owned several businesses on the side. He was a "pillar" among his community, active in his church, donated tons of money to charity. He would also call escort services and have sex with escorts during his two-hour "lunch break." I found his herpes medication hidden in a tylenol bottle, so I don't think he even told his wife he had it. When I finally got sick of it (there was really no way I could quit at the time, I had to eat and pay rent, I don't get financial help from anyone) and said something, he basically said no one would believe me if I told them and it got worse.

I remember when I finally could quit working for him I corrected all his spelling/grammar in a letter he left for me and made him look like a complete idiot. He had the nerve to CRY about it, too. Fucking douchebag.

 

[Guybrush]

if you said no, you said no.

The problem is that, as it is often a ‘word against word’ situation, the court is often to decide how likely it is that the accuser said ‘no’. In deciding that, the pasts of the accuser and the accused sure are relevant.

Who was it that said, ‘a no is not always a no—that’s dogma’? I cannot remember, but he was right, of course. Life’s a greyscale.

 

[nomadologist]

?????

So you really think that if you started having sex with someone, and they said "No. Stop." that wouldn't necessarily mean you had to stop????

How exactly can you deduce how "likely" it is that someone said no???

See this way of thinking is EXACTLY the reason why rapists don't get convicted.

As "greyscale" as life may be, someone expressing their desire for you to STOP touching them, or someone saying "NO you can't have sex with me" are NOT "grey" areas.

My number one question would usually be: what motivation might this woman have for lying about this? Given how difficult it is to accuse someone of rape because of the negative consequences the accuser has to live with, the motivation would have to outweigh that pretty heavily. Like maybe someone had a serious reason to want to get revenge, I can see that happening. But there are very few reasons I can think of beyond delusional mental illness and serious revenge plans that would cause a woman to lie about getting raped. Usually there are defensive wounds as a result of non-consensual sex--bruises, vaginal tearing, etc.

 

[mms]

This is always a weird issue in terms of being an apologist for non-violent pedophiles--looks more and more like predatory sexuality is just that, and these goons always graduate to reality when the fantasy loses its novelty. The fantasy is, unfortunatley, just practice for the real thing.

"To Catch a Predator" is on every week in the U.S., and it really drives that point home. It's a show where they lure pedophiles online, then set up a "meeting" and lure them into a house, catching them on camera. First, a good portion of them are what anyone would guess to be decent men, rabbis, clergy, lawyers, doctors, teachers. What's so sad and weird is how often so many of them will try to argue for how they weren't going to do anything wrong even when the reporters are shoving transcripts of disgusting chat conversations and shit in their faces. One guy they even got to walk into the house naked and he just stood there arguing that he wasn't going to do anything wrong to the 10-year-old boy. I just can't believe these predators really think that 10-year-old kids go online to hook up with old predators--like, why don't they see it coming? They must really want to believe...

it seems obvious to me that alot of people who are paedophiles are people in a position of power, it normalises their power, and paradoxically makes it less believable for people to trust their own children against a 'respectable person of power' . It would seem a role where people entrust your children to you would be the best job. A guy i knew had something like a ten year 'relationship' with a paedo teacher.

The other thing in this country is people are obsessed with paedo's being scrawny piss stained mac outsiders, which is alot more uncommon than relatives or people put in care of children, but people don't want to say anything about it because of it means taking on 'healthy' ideas like families and other 'positive' organisations. People would rather reflect their anger at the cases where serious outsider padeos are a problem rather than the secret guilt, normalised behaviour of incest or family friends, good people etc.

 

[Guybrush]

?????

So you really think that if you started having sex with someone, and they said "No. Stop." that wouldn't necessarily mean you had to stop????

How exactly can you deduce how "likely" it is that someone said no???

See this way of thinking is EXACTLY the reason why rapists don't get convicted.

As "greyscale" as life may be, someone expressing their desire for you to STOP touching them, or someone saying "NO you can't have sex with me" are NOT "grey" areas.

My number one question would usually be: what motivation might this woman have for lying about this? Given how difficult it is to accuse someone of rape because of the negative consequences the accuser has to live with, the motivation would have to outweigh that pretty heavily. Like maybe someone had a serious reason to want to get revenge, I can see that happening. But there are very few reasons I can think of beyond delusional mental illness and serious revenge plans that would cause a woman to lie about getting raped. Usually there are defensive wounds as a result of non-consensual sex--bruises, vaginal tearing, etc.

´

You got me completely wrong. Read the paragraph again: I was outlining the problem the court faces; what really happened, no one can say for sure. But, yeah, sure, I agree with you on the second thing, false rape accusations are probably pretty rare.

 

[nomadologist]

definitely true here, too, MMS.

You know what was so awful for me recently? My mother has been having a really difficult time, and long story short, she confessed she had to seek professional help for some serious mental distress she's been having. In the course of telling me, she had to explain something and I knew it was hard for her to say because she kept hesitating. She started like this, "Well, you know how they say 'no means no' nowadays. When I was a kid, they didn't think like that..." and proceeded to tell me that the first time she had sex she was raped by her boyfriend in her own house. Suddenly her crippling, debilitating lifelong emotional problems made sense to me. Even worse was that I KNEW who her first boyfriend was, and I seriously felt like finding him and bashing his head in. I haven't told my dad or my brother because I know they would try...

This shit comes up all the time for me, but it's been coming up all the time recently, and I swear I'll just never understand.

 

[nomadologist]

and some even better stories from Afganistan:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/02/06/afghanistan/