comics

[petergunn]

petergunn - I was reading through this thread and saw you think Joe Sacco's comics suck assholes. I'm interested to know why you think this?

i read the Sarajevo one and it seemed:

1) badly drawn
2) a half assed journalism...


what i am saying is with Joe Sacco, if you gave a space alien, who had never heard of Yugoslavia or Palestine, one of his comics and had him read it, he would be bored... just b/c his heart is in the right place and he is shining a light on abused foreign people, it doesn't make it a good comic...

so so drawings and so so journalism does not equal "GREAT PIECE OF ART"...

 

[connect_icut]

Does anyone remember a comic from the late 80s/early 90s called Faust? I never read it by I remember reading ABOUT it at the time. Seems like the creators were trying to create the most outlandish mix of sex and violence possible. It's weird how the comics world seems to be a magnet for this kind of extremity (which may be related to my previous comment about political extremism). I suspect there was actually quite a lot of stuff like Faust at the time. I remember there being some outcry over Omaha the Cat Dancer, which was simultaneously a talking-animal comic, a hardcore porn mag and a rather boring soap opera.

 

[zhao]

Does anyone remember a comic from the late 80s/early 90s called Faust? I never read it by I remember reading ABOUT it at the time. Seems like the creators were trying to create the most outlandish mix of sex and violence possible. It's weird how the comics world seems to be a magnet for this kind of extremity (which may be related to my previous comment about political extremism). I suspect there was actually quite a lot of stuff like Faust at the time. I remember there being some outcry over Omaha the Cat Dancer, which was simultaneously a talking-animal comic, a hardcore porn mag and a rather boring soap opera.

sex, violence, and dont forget Satanism... i had first print mint condition Faust first 4 or 5 issues and treasured them when i was 15. it was really well drawn, and the writing had certain adolescent literary aspirations/pretensions. it is or was quite the collected and rare cult title.

no i don't think there were a lot like Faust at all. only 2 other titles are comparable in subject, tone, and style: Cry For Dawn, more horror and gothic eroticism than Satanic violence, and the original series before completely becoming cheap porn were an OK read. and Grips, drawn by the same guy that did Faust, was just revenge fantasy ultra violence. (these 2 i also had)

 

[zhao]

i read the Sarajevo one and it seemed:

1) badly drawn
2) a half assed journalism...

point 1 is largely subjective. no, not AMAZING, but neither do i think the art should be in a case like this. to me the drawings competently told the story and lent the books a certain sad comical charm which often paralleled the stories. as i get older i become more appreciative of unassuming and diligent art which doesn't call attention to itself or compete with the writing for glory, but only quietly gets the job done.

point 2 i disagree with. his books are written in diary form, and seems like a straight forward record of his first hand experiences, and nothing else. they do not pretend or try to be Chomskyist in-depth historical analysis -- thus taken as what they are and on their own terms, nothing about them is "half assed".

 

[zhao]

also, it is both unfair and beside the point to call jimmy corrigan "overly precious".

would you call a Vase from the Ming Dynasty "overly precious" as well? or, i dunno, some painstakingly put together piece of music? some things are intentionally made with a lot of fuss and attention to detail bordering on OCD; they are what they are, and again, should be taken on their own terms.

in fact obsessiveness in this case fits the loneliness and self pity of the subject matter perfectly. so form follows function... and what innovative and inventive form it is! not a minor revolution in story telling method and style.

 

[zhao]

also did i see upthread people equating Libertarianism with Right wing or Conservatism? how does that work?

 

[petergunn]

also, it is both unfair and beside the point to call jimmy corrigan "overly precious".

would you call a Vase from the Ming Dynasty "overly precious" as well? .

dude...

 

[petergunn]

clearly we are in "agree to disagree" territory w/ Jimmy Corrigan...

they are certain things i like in art and certain things i don't and JC has alot of the latter...

it's a good thing i don't post in the David Foster Wallace thread....

i don't think it's unfair to call JC "overly precious", i think it's spot on... zhao, aren't you a graphic designer? jesus, of course you would love that guy's stuff...

 

[zhao]

clearly we are in "agree to disagree" territory w/ Jimmy Corrigan...

they are certain things i like in art and certain things i don't and JC has alot of the latter...

it's a good thing i don't post in the David Foster Wallace thread....

i don't think it's unfair to call JC "overly precious", i think it's spot on... zhao, aren't you a graphic designer? jesus, of course you would love that guy's stuff...

dude. personal likes and dislikes is all fine but:

calling Jimmy Corrigan "overly precious" is like calling Jackson Pollock "too messy".
or calling the Illiad too long or Richie Hawtin too repetitive.

get me? it is what it is, and should only be judged on its own terms.

 

[petergunn]

point 1 is largely subjective. no, not AMAZING, but neither do i think the art should be in a case like this. to me the drawings competently told the story and lent the books a certain sad comical charm which often paralleled the stories. as i get older i become more appreciative of unassuming and diligent art which doesn't call attention to itself or compete with the writing for glory, but only quietly gets the job done.

point 2 i disagree with. his books are written in diary form, and seems like a straight forward record of his first hand experiences, and nothing else. they do not pretend or try to be Chomskyist in-depth historical analysis -- thus taken as what they are and on their own terms, nothing about them is "half assed".

again, if you gave someone who did not have a direct political interest in Joe Sacco's viewpoints a copy of his book, they'd be bored... the only people who read his books are people who already have their minds made up on his subject matter...

so, fine, he's not a journalist, he's a political diarist who draws (badly)? WHO CARES? if Joe Sacco wrote a prose article on his experiences, the average reader wouldn't read it... so why should i read it bc he's decided to illustrate it?

if you are going to go to a place of real human suffering so you can squeeze a book out of it, you better produce something amazing, and i feel like Joe Sacco fails that test...

 

[petergunn]

dude. personal likes and dislikes is all fine but:

calling Jimmy Corrigan "overly precious" is like calling Jackson Pollock "too messy".
or calling the Illiad too long or Richie Hawtin too repetitive.

get me? it is what it is, and should only be judged on its own terms.

so you are saying that the end all and be all of JC is to be "overly precious"? that it's preciousness is what makes it special and is integral to it's worth as art?

if so, again, we have to agree to disagree... bc i don't like minimal techno preciously bc it's too repetitive... everyone has certain likes and dislikes and i look at JC and i don't like it...

 

[zhao]

again, if you gave someone who did not have a direct political interest in Joe Sacco's viewpoints a copy of his book, they'd be bored...

from what do you draw this conclusion?

the only people who read his books are people who already have their minds made up on his subject matter...

same thing can be said about ANY SEMI-POLITICAL WRITER you realize.

if Joe Sacco wrote a prose article on his experiences, the average reader wouldn't read it...

again, from what do you draw this conclusion? i would read his stories in column form for sure - especially right now as i'm on a big travel books kick...

 

[zhao]

so you are saying that the end all and be all of JC is to be "overly precious"? that it's preciousness is what makes it special and is integral to it's worth as art?

if so, again, we have to agree to disagree... bc i don't like minimal techno preciously bc it's too repetitive... everyone has certain likes and dislikes and i look at JC and i don't like it...

no that is not what i am saying. just like i am not saying that "messiness" is the only thing which makes Jackson Pollack interesting or its length the only thing good about the Iliad.

what i am saying is that the "over preciousness" or obsessiveness of his style works well with his subject matter and mood, and everything together makes for something more than the sum of its parts.

and again, personal likes and dislikes is all fine of course, you are entitled to your own, etc. but subjective preference makes poor criticism and boring conversation...

 

[connect_icut]

About the libertarianism thing: I'm really talking about contemporary North American libertarianism, which is - as far as I can see it - an ultra-right wing ideology based on individualism, the free market, minimization of the state, gun ownership and survivalism/social Darwinism. Obviously, I know the term, in its most general sense, crosses the left/right divide but in the contemporary North American sense, libertarianism is surely very much an ideology of the extreme right.

I bet the guys who did Faust were libertarians. Te buggers are everywhere.

 

[petergunn]

dunno if this has been discussed, but i finally bought Wilson by D. Clowes... pretty good... entire thing is told in one page strips... in a way, it reminds me of Tin Tin, in the sense that every page has to have an endpoint, yet it tells a whole story... sometimes this format is limiting, but it does have Clowes mix of real storytelling and juvenile humor... also, he uses about 10 diff drawing styles, from 60's style Cartoon to "life like"... in that way, it's similar to "Ice Haven"...

 

[connect_icut]

dunno if this has been discussed, but i finally bought Wilson by D. Clowes... pretty good... entire thing is told in one page strips... in a way, it reminds me of Tin Tin, in the sense that every page has to have an endpoint, yet it tells a whole story... sometimes this format is limiting, but it does have Clowes mix of real storytelling and juvenile humor... also, he uses about 10 diff drawing styles, from 60's style Cartoon to "life like"... in that way, it's similar to "Ice Haven"...

Wilson is great.

In other news...!

 

[droid]

Watchmensch: http://www.mediafire.com/?gmtzjimyg44

 

[smokeyrobinson]

Just got part 3 of Knightfall, going to re-read the first two before I hit it though, so good. Just read Batman RIP (morrison/daniel) and it was dynamite, though heavy going!

 

[connect_icut]

Jaime Hernandez's "The Love Bunglers", collected in the last few volumes of Love & Rockets New Stories is just about the most amazing fucking thing I've ever read!

 

[zhao]

About the libertarianism thing: I'm really talking about contemporary North American libertarianism, which is - as far as I can see it - an ultra-right wing ideology based on individualism, the free market, minimization of the state, gun ownership and survivalism/social Darwinism. Obviously, I know the term, in its most general sense, crosses the left/right divide but in the contemporary North American sense, libertarianism is surely very much an ideology of the extreme right.

I bet the guys who did Faust were libertarians. Te buggers are everywhere.

never replied to this... thanks that makes sense. to the teenage death metal listening anton lavey reading me a decade or 2 ago and charlie sheen anyhow.