Hyperfrank's Badness homophobia post

[Mr. Tea]

Gavin, I hear what you're saying about cultures not being monolithic, that's obviously true: it would be stupid to claim *all* Jamaicans are homophobic and *all* Britons are not. But the fact remains that the average Jamaican is far more likely to be homophobic than the average Briton, and that these generalisations apply not only to the general public but also the establishment's attitudes and the law, so it's still justified to talk about a 'homophobic culture'.

I think it's interesting that you say "there are probably loads of pro-gay people in grime, but I can't think of any"; to me, this smacks a bit of self-delusion. You like grime (I assume, maybe you don't), and you dislike bigotry and prejudice, so you want to believe there are anti-bigotry grime artists.

I don't see how a dichotomy between a country where people are regularly killed for being gay and one in which they aren't is in any way 'false'. I'm not trying to knock the entirety of Jamaican culture, obviously, and of course the country's music has huge influence on music scenes around the world, but the homophobia thing is a very ugly and widespread part of that culture and I think it's pretty lame to throw up our hands and say "Well, it's their culture not ours, so we can't criticize it for fear of being imperialistic".

 

[Gavin]

I think it's interesting that you say "there are probably loads of pro-gay people in grime, but I can't think of any"; to me, this smacks a bit of self-delusion. You like grime (I assume, maybe you don't), and you dislike bigotry and prejudice, so you want to believe there are anti-bigotry grime artists.

I do like grime but I don't know a whole lot about how the scene works (there is pretty much zero grime coverage in the states since Dizzee failed to become the Great British Hip Hop Import a few years back), which is why I was more hesitant there. But I doubt that every person in the scene (not just artists) are anti-gay, and that's the way I think scenes should be "reformed" -- from within. Obviously this Hyperfrank guy (don't know his status or connection or whatever) is one.

I don't see how a dichotomy between a country where people are regularly killed for being gay and one in which they aren't is in any way 'false'. I'm not trying to knock the entirety of Jamaican culture, obviously, and of course the country's music has huge influence on music scenes around the world, but the homophobia thing is a very ugly and widespread part of that culture and I think it's pretty lame to throw up our hands and say "Well, it's their culture not ours, so we can't criticize it for fear of being imperialistic".

Of course you can criticize it, but have you read much of the criticism? It's mostly by people who know little about reggae and have nothing at stake when they condemn dancehall. I'm sifting through a few right now, and they all take "bun" as literally burning people, which is silly! I don't support cultural relativism (I tried to make that clear in my previous post), I think violence should be opposed, but the wealth of ill-informed anti-dancehall criticism in the West is SUSPECT to say the least.

From Wikipedia:

A recent poll showed that 96% of Jamaicans were opposed to any move that would seek to legalise homosexual relations. Many Jamaicans are devoutly Christian and claim that their anti-gay stance is based on religious grounds.

How often does this HIGHLY IMPORTANT statistic come up in anti-dancehall diatribes? Indeed, Christianity is responsible for most of the homophobia I've encountered in the US. How often do those articles support or even mention J-FLAG, the Jamaican gay rights organization? If these people REALLY cared about homophobia in Jamaican culture, you would expect to see those mentioned instead of harping on a 15 year old Buju track he made before he converted to Rastafarianism and renounced violence. I don't think opposing homophobia is wrong, or being offended by anti-gay lyrics and wanting them changed (I wouldn't miss the "bun the battyman" lyrics a bit), but I think there is SOMETHING ELSE behind all the homophobia accusations levelled at rap/dancehall/and now grime rappers, often from people who would hate this music even if it called for gay orgies. They have no stake in the music or the culture or the country (indeed, I can think of many other things people in the West should call for if they want to improve the situation for Jamaicans). To me this is more about silencing the voices of the black underclass than an ingenuous attempt to combat homophobia on an impoverished Caribbean island.

 

[hyperfrank]

I'M female by the way....

 

[noel emits]

You listening to Rinse hyperfrank?

 

[noel emits]

MC Grumpiness.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Hmm, I can see that maybe *some* people might have ulterior motives for criticizing homophobia in Jamaican music (and black music generally), but let's not take this so far as to end up saying "It's OK for black people to be anti-gay, and anyone who says otherwise is a racist". (Although of course I appreciate that you're not sayng this).

I don't think my attitude has anything much to do with whether I like or don't like Jamaican music; as it happens, I quite like some dub and reggae, although I hate dancehall/ragga. Similarly, I still wince when I hear boneheaded lyrics in white rock music I otherwise like.

 

[mms]

Of course you can criticize it, but have you read much of the criticism? It's mostly by people who know little about reggae and have nothing at stake when they condemn dancehall. I'm sifting through a few right now, and they all take "bun" as literally burning people, which is silly! I don't support cultural relativism (I tried to make that clear in my previous post), I think violence should be opposed, but the wealth of ill-informed anti-dancehall criticism in the West is SUSPECT to say the least.

look lyrics advocating the killing of gay people are wrong and i hate it when i get a dancehall record that does it, got a record by international star baby cham last year which went on about killing gays, but again the idea of homosexuality being wrong is reinforced by the state in j.a .who punish gay people with imprisonment for 8 years supposedly for being gay.
In a place as feudal as Jamaica it's not really surprising that people advocate anti-homosexual lyrics (and they do it's a fact) as a way of showing protection for their society within a society, but all this chat of homophobia being long gone isn't really true.
Buju has allegedly had clear connections with a gang that recently carried out the murder of a prominent gay rights leader regardless of him writing boom bye bye years ago.
Sizzla recently signed a kind of binding document that states he is against homophobia, but i'm sure he does bun batty man lyrics at gigs as they get approval.
I do kind of agree that banning artists is kind of mismanaging the issue and shooting the messenger to an extent though, but things need to change.

 

[mos dan]

Prety much every male teenager is hyper homophobic. Its the easiest and one of the most damaging slurs to use against somebody. That's my experience growing up anyhow.

I know the aggressive homophobia of most male teens everywhere really fucks me off. It is something a lot of people grow out of to an extent, I think. The question is, do you think if you take teenagers say 20 years from now they'll have a generally more live-and-let-live approach? That much further on from the 1960s and all.

Big up Frank for the piece btw - blogs leading the debate, the way it should be!

 

[hyperfrank]

Personally I thought it wasn't just a discusting lyric but terribly unapproapriate being at a love music hate racism sponsered event and at Dirty Canvas which is a night that invites all types of people to celebrate the sound without being intimidated. There will always be excuses and im quite suprised by the immaturity of some fans and some of the aggressiveness put by, by them. Surely me voicing my opinion just like Badness did in his lyrics, isn't trying tO 'SHUT BADNESS DOWN' like the rwd forum said. I did hear a few moments from Rinse yesterday and saying something to the effect of I should have a bullet to my head top just put it all into prospective, I didn't really need to listen to any more...

 

[mos dan]

Personally I thought it wasn't just a discusting lyric but terribly unapproapriate being at a love music hate racism sponsered event and at Dirty Canvas which is a night that invites all types of people to celebrate the sound without being intimidated. There will always be excuses and im quite suprised by the immaturity of some fans and some of the aggressiveness put by, by them. Surely me voicing my opinion just like Badness did in his lyrics, isn't trying tO 'SHUT BADNESS DOWN' like the rwd forum said. I did hear a few moments from Rinse yesterday and saying something to the effect of I should have a bullet to my head top just put it all into prospective, I didn't really need to listen to any more...

pathetic. tbh i'm quite happy to air badness on lower end spasm for that reason (we've supported him in the past as well), even more so than the original comment. freedom of speech is fine, but if you're going to use it to be a prick then you get treated like a prick.

i know bun-u's on holiday but i wonder if this might disrupt dirty canvas' cosiness with badness a bit.

 

[Melissa]

Personally I thought it wasn't just a discusting lyric but terribly unapproapriate being at a love music hate racism sponsered event and at Dirty Canvas which is a night that invites all types of people to celebrate the sound without being intimidated. There will always be excuses and im quite suprised by the immaturity of some fans and some of the aggressiveness put by, by them. Surely me voicing my opinion just like Badness did in his lyrics, isn't trying tO 'SHUT BADNESS DOWN' like the rwd forum said. I did hear a few moments from Rinse yesterday and saying something to the effect of I should have a bullet to my head top just put it all into prospective, I didn't really need to listen to any more...

its all especially ironic given his lyrics in 'no-one ever cared'!! which is surely in some big part responsible for how much attention he's getting right now

er

oh and i just put a comment up on ur blog frank check it

i dont think ppl can hide behind freedom of speech or cultural relativism now he's said that cuz freedom of speech and cultural relativism should equally mean that he should tolerate what you think and say innit. DUH.

 

[mms]

I know the aggressive homophobia of most male teens everywhere really fucks me off. It is something a lot of people grow out of to an extent, I think. The question is, do you think if you take teenagers say 20 years from now they'll have a generally more live-and-let-live approach? That much further on from the 1960s and all.

Big up Frank for the piece btw - blogs leading the debate, the way it should be!

yes i think people do grow out of homophobia a bit more as they get older, teenagers are insecure about their sexuality principally cos they don't really have confidence with it, so partly they invent it and part of inventing it is choosing the correct version against the version they aren't imo. Also dissing a kid for being allegedly gay is also reducing potential competition for women too.
Some kids in soho called me a batty boy a few years ago and it was just weird and funny, i think it was the scarf i had on or something!
Badness should really watch what he says on rinse fm cos that kind of chatter could really get the station in trouble, and that would be horribly ironic.

 

[Guybrush]

If I may coin and trademark a new phrase ...

Moral Imperialism

It’s catchy. Weekly Standard, take note.

 

[claphands]

that rwd thread is awful

 

[mos dan]

yes i think people do grow out of homophobia a bit more as they get older, teenagers are insecure about their sexuality principally cos they don't really have confidence with it, so partly they invent it and part of inventing it is choosing the correct version against the version they aren't imo. Also dissing a kid for being allegedly gay is also reducing potential competition for women too.
Some kids in soho called me a batty boy a few years ago and it was just weird and funny, i think it was the scarf i had on or something!
Badness should really watch what he says on rinse fm cos that kind of chatter could really get the station in trouble, and that would be horribly ironic.

fuck that hadn't occurred to me.

i hope the next few decades see male teenagers lose that aggressive homophobia, but i don't know if it'll happen.. completely needless, irrational hatred, it really upsets me. [and now i am the 'left wing neek' referred to in my first post on this thread lol].

 

[mms]

that rwd thread is awful

isn't it?
the number of people referencing sin and the bible to back up their morality, and eschews the central tenants of Christianity, the commandments of Moses, which certainly wouldn't forgive alot of the lyrical content of grime, so best stop using that as an excuse.

 

[claphands]

isn't it?
the number of people referencing sin and the bible to back up their morality, and eschews the central tenants of Christianity, the commandments of Moses, which certainly wouldn't forgive alot of the lyrical content of grime, so best stop using that as an excuse.

it's like ninjaman who argued lady saw was promoting sodomy by talking about guys going down on her, fucking ninjaman

 

[28 Gun Nice Boy]

freedom of speech is fine, but if you're going to use it to be a prick then you get treated like a prick.

i know bun-u's on holiday but i wonder if this might disrupt dirty canvas' cosiness with badness a bit.

Well this is it, I agree with freedom of speech and Badness is entitled to his opinion at least (even if it is depressing, lowest common denominator drivel) but same ways we're entitled to air him too, that's our right; I'm not going to say that I won't buy any of his products (i.e. CDs or vinyl) ever again but if it contains that crap then I ain't dealing with it. I've applied that approach to hip hop and dancehall for a long time and I'll extend it to any other music, including grime. If you're a promotor and you have a problem with Badness' bars then don't book him or let him know you won't book him again if he continues with that nonsense - that's not censorship, it's just exercising your own right of choice.

 

[28 Gun Nice Boy]

that rwd thread is awful

It is depressing. I know and often meet people with these kinds of beliefs but somehow seeing it in writing, knowing that people have actually been bothered enough to make the effort to type such pathetic nastiness makes it seem worse.

 

[mos dan]

Can anyone confirm whether the Killa P who commented on Hyperfrank's post is *the* Killa P?

I need to know which deaded MCs to cross off my Christmas card list.

Best thing for the grime scene is this blows over, which I am SURE it will, and will do so soon. People like Badness getting publicly banned from raves would draw pretty negative media attention. At the same time, I know I wouldn't be booking him. Wasteman.

Is no-one else seeing this as an example of tension between 'left-wing neeks' involved in the scene and grime's core audience of predominantly black male teenagers? It's a bit of an elephant in the living room.