Why Israel
- Thread starter vimothy
- Start date
matt b
Indexing all opinion
afaik, according to fundamental christians, when all jews are back in israel the 2nd coming commences.
then all true believers in the lord will enter into heaven.
hence you get mad wealthy christians going all over (russia seems to be a favourite place) offering cash to jews if they return to israel.
or somesuch
crackerjack
Well-known member
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Speaking of cults, I heard there's a sect (edit: several groups, by the look of it) of ultra-orthodox Jews who are in fact anti-Zionist, since (as they see it) God kicked their ancestors out of the Promised Land, or at least allowed the Diaspora to take place, as punishment for their sins, so returning to Israel without God's permission is a form of blasphemy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi...opposed_to_recognition_of_the_State_of_Israel
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N
nomadologist
Guest
You're right there--I'm pretty sure the Hasidim are anti-Zionist as well. A lot of them own buildings in my neighborhood...during the upheaval a couple years ago where the leaders were going to start some kind of chasm I heard them speaking out against Israel.
They also don't believe in dinosaurs. They think the entire Natural History Museum up on the park is full of hoaxes. Strict 6,000-year-old Earth creationists.
They also don't believe in dinosaurs. They think the entire Natural History Museum up on the park is full of hoaxes. Strict 6,000-year-old Earth creationists.
crackerjack
Well-known member
Didn't one of these sects turn up to Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denialfest?
crackerjack
Well-known member
Incidentally, at what point does this become cheating? I mean, if God wants all Jewish people back in the holy land, presumably he wants them there of their own accord and not because one of his rich American followers has stuffed their pockets full of dollar bills.
Or maybe God is a nu labourite at heart - so long as you meet the target who cares how you got there.
isn't one of the things about the fulfillment of the rapture that the al-aqsa mosque must be torn down and replaced with a jewish temple - there was some talk of this being a really popular idea with reagan and his cronies, then one of the mashed together ideas that fundies thing will kick start the end of the world will happen, which i think is the coming of the anti-christ.
hence it being attacked since the late 60's by christian nuts, zionist nuts, and the israeli government, etc..
hence it being attacked since the late 60's by christian nuts, zionist nuts, and the israeli government, etc..
noel emits
a wonderful wooden reason
I don't speak Iranian but do you know what he actually said? This is an interesting, sarcy, little piece by Scott Adams: http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/09/a-feeling-im-be.html
I hate Ahmadinejad for all the same reasons you do. For one thing, he
said he wants to "wipe Israel off the map." Scholars tell us the correct
translation is more along the lines of wanting a change in Israel's
government toward something more democratic, with less gerrymandering.
What an ass-muncher!
Ahmadinejad also called the holocaust a "myth." Fuck him! A myth is
something a society uses to frame their understanding of their world, and
act accordingly. It's not as if the world created a whole new country
because of holocaust guilt and gives it a free pass no matter what it
does. That's Iranian crazy talk. Ahmadinejad can blow me.
crackerjack
Well-known member
What who said, Ahmadinejad? No, I don't speak Iranian/Farsi/whatever it is, and I'm quite prepared to believe some of what he's said in the past may have had the worst possible spin put on it by Iran's enemies.
But if you're serious about examining the Holocaust, you don't hold a conference and invite people like David Duke and Robert Faurisson. We can agree on that, can't we?
vimothy
yurp
None of this is necessary. There is nothing unique and Islamic or unique and Arabic about reactionary and nihilistic radical-political movements. In origin, they are entirely European. They come from the same boring philosophical dead-zone as yr bog-standard avant garde. They are certainly foreign to Islam and the Middle East.
It has nothing to do with race.
I didn't say that all Palestinians are barbarians (but don't let that bother you). I said that they don't care for the lives of their children. It wasn't a particularly kind thing to say. It was a bit of a perhaps unnecessary knee-jerk condemnation. But still, its clear that the Palestinians have put the "struggle" above real life, above development, above peace, above their children's well-being, above Palestine. How else can you explain a people who are proud when their kids become bombs to kill Israelis? How else can you explain a people who dance in the street with joy when Israeli civilians are murdered?
[As for people on this board slandering Israelis (or "Zionists"), they have been variously described as Nazis, dogs, racists, citizens of an "apartheid state", etc.... Beside the point, however].
vimothy
yurp
..which is exactly what I've been saying all thread.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Be fair now - if not all Palestinians are 'barbarians', then not all Israelis are Zionists. You yourself have mentioned Israeli pressure groups and political parties that are pro-Palestinian/anti-Zionist.
Edit:
Whoah Vim, that's a heck of an about-face!
vimothy
yurp
But we both know what's meant here. There can't be many Israelis who don't support the idea of a homeland for the Jewish people in Israel. "Zionist" is simply any Israeli I don't like or agree with.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well I think you're using an unnecessarily broad definition of the term, then. OK, so maybe it was originally coined back in the 19th century to describe people who wanted to found a Jewish homeland-state, but since that has already come to pass, there's no reason for anyone to call themselves a 'Zionist' in that historical sense any more. It's usually used these days to describe Israeli nationalists who want to retake Palestinian territory and expand their country beyond its current boundaries, expel Arab-Israelis and so on. In the sense that I disagree with this doctrine, I am anti-Zionist.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that you're a Zionist if you think Israel has a right to continue to exist - which I think it does, purely because it does exist, and what is done cannot be undone - and that therefore all anti-Zionists want to see the dissolution of Israel.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that you're a Zionist if you think Israel has a right to continue to exist - which I think it does, purely because it does exist, and what is done cannot be undone - and that therefore all anti-Zionists want to see the dissolution of Israel.
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crackerjack
Well-known member
You sure about this? Maybe Zionist has been thrown around as an insult so often some people feel they have to constrict its definition to a certain particularly aggressive form of Zionism. But it's playing into the hands of the nasty little Zhao-ists to say, eg, Zionism = settlers.
This wiki definition seems pretty standard to me.
vimothy
yurp
Standard indeed. Here's the Jewish Virtual Library's definition of Zionism:
The national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well put it this way: I think it was a mistake that Israel was founded in the first place, but it's impossible to 'un-found' it now, and it would massively immoral if it were possible, since the vast majority of Israelis today were born after the country's founding and had no direct part in it. So I call myself anti-Zionist in the sense that I oppose some of the things Israel has done since it was founded, and in many cases continues to do today, such as allow its people to found settlements on illegally-occupied land - which is undoubtably the activity of Zionists, or at least hard-line Zionists, if you prefer.
Edit:
Exactly: it WAS attained, HAS BEEN attained. So there's no reason for anyone to call themselves a Zionist (in this sense) these days, other than to demonstrate that they are anti-anti-Zionist, because they oppose the extremists who want to see the country annihilated. It's like the way there's no anti-monarchy movement in France because they deposed theirs hundreds of years ago: the only meaningful way a modern Frenchman could be called 'anti-monarchist' is the sense in which he would oppose any move to reinstate the monarchy.
Edit:
Exactly: it WAS attained, HAS BEEN attained. So there's no reason for anyone to call themselves a Zionist (in this sense) these days, other than to demonstrate that they are anti-anti-Zionist, because they oppose the extremists who want to see the country annihilated. It's like the way there's no anti-monarchy movement in France because they deposed theirs hundreds of years ago: the only meaningful way a modern Frenchman could be called 'anti-monarchist' is the sense in which he would oppose any move to reinstate the monarchy.
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crackerjack
Well-known member
This may be splitting hairs, but presumably a Zionist is in favour of the continued existence of Israel. It's not just 'been there, fought the war, founded the country, got the uniform'.