Hipsters: Scourge or Irrelevence

[droid]

How about owning a tiny, poky little house, or a grotty flat above a little shop? Or renting one? Many of the rioters didn't go very far to do their rioting and a lot of the areas of London that got wrecked are pretty fucking down-at-heel. I don't see anything to celebrate in the image of poor people getting attacked by other poor people.

But then I am desperately reactionary, so there you go.

I think the suggestion is that highlighting the property damage caused by rioting instead of focusing on root causes and potential social change that may result is in itself conservative and reactionary. Like those people who complain about being late for work everytime there's a protest or strike of any kind.

 

[comelately]

Owning any property in London makes you privileged now.

I don't think I'm on record as supporting the riots. I thought they were an interesting pheomenon, but I was near enough some of them that I slept with my baseball bat. Clearly some shitty things happened to people and people's stuff and they were not deserving victims. The point is to try to avoid playing the blame game at all.

As I say, Mr Tea, the way you generalise and the way you articulate things is really quite telling. Houseowners are all hardworking & deserving, direct protestors are all half way to manning the gas chambers.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I think the suggestion is that highlighting the property damage caused by rioting instead of focusing on root causes and potential social change that may result is in itself conservative and reactionary. Like those people who complain about being late for work everytime there's a protest or strike of any kind.

Jesus fucking Christ, in what universe is having your home destroyed not a fairly big deal? I'm not talking about Hyacinth Bucket losing a couple of her prize petunias here, people were made homeless. Somewhat more inconvenient than being made late for work.

And yes, I heard and read an awful lot about the root causes of the riots. They're serious and important issues - obviously. That doesn't justify an attitude of "yeah, so some people lost everything they owned, big deal".

 

[Mr. Tea]

Owning any property in London makes you privileged now.

And therefore what - a justified target? You've already admitted yourself that it doesn't, so what are you getting at exactly?

I don't think I'm on record as supporting the riots. I thought they were an interesting pheomenon, but I was near enough some of them that I slept with my baseball bat.

Lol, I daresay war can be "an interesting phenomenon" when you're not the one actually getting bombed. And no, I wasn't talking about you in particular, although you seem to be taking a broadly similar line in this thread.

Clearly some shitty things happened to people and people's stuff and they were not deserving victims. The point is to try to avoid playing the blame game at all.

If you set fire to someone's house then I think you're fairly clearly to blame for that person's house being on fire, regardless of whatever injustices you've suffered, or consider yourself to have suffered. This all comes back to something I said a few pages ago now - being justified in your anger doesn't make any person you choose to target a justified target.

 

[comelately]

You're either with Tea, or you're with the terrorists eh?

Just because somebody does not deserve to be a victim of crime, does not necessarily make the explicit perpetrator wholly and morally responsible for the effects. The effects are contextualised by social structures, as are the underlying events that lead to the criminal action. To ignore that stuff, and to simply take a binary view of blame is a very conservative way of looking at the world.

That doesn't mean I think that the rioters should have got away with it. Coming back to the recent demo (god forbid), I thought it was a bit of a strange idea and wouldn't have participated myself. And some people went too far for my tastes, and I wouldn't cry too many tears if they were arrested and dealt with proportionately. Anyone who rings them and shouts 'Hipster Die!' probably needs psychological help, but a good kicking probably wouldn't go amiss either.

My feelings around the extremely violent aspects of the rioting are similar. Ultimately anything like that will attract people with a wide variety of motivations, and giving them such a big window of opportunity is probably a good reason to be very wary of starting a riot. Does that make every participant in riots responsible for what all others do? I get that there is a notion of 'joint enterprise' but even if you agreed with that (I don't really) it seems like it's a stretch to employ it here. And does that mean I have to 'condemn' the riots, whatever that really means, else I condone them? Fuck that, and your squeamish right-wing victim's rights narrative of 'you wouldn't like it if it was you'. That doesn't mean I don't sympathise, it just means that I'm not going to let that get in the way of a proper analysis of root causes, or indeed even a certain mischievous wonder at these little earthquakes when they occur.

 

[comelately]

Jesus fucking Christ, in what universe is having your home destroyed not a fairly big deal? I'm not talking about Hyacinth Bucket losing a couple of her prize petunias here, people were made homeless. Somewhat more inconvenient than being made late for work.

And yes, I heard and read an awful lot about the root causes of the riots. They're serious and important issues - obviously. That doesn't justify an attitude of "yeah, so some people lost everything they owned, big deal".

The thing is, in the actual issue at hand none of this happened. The Cereal Killer cafe has continued to trade perfectly well, so you're the one conflating people losing their homes with minor property damage.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The thing is, in the actual issue at hand none of this happened. The Cereal Killer cafe has continued to trade perfectly well, so you're the one conflating people losing their homes with minor property damage.

OK, then I concede luka's point that an ill-conceived protest against a silly but generally harmless cafe is quite a different thing from the riots of four years ago. Maybe it was unwise to bring that other issue up in this thread.

 

[luka]

Tea, there's nothing wrong with you you're just slightly more conservative than the rest of us.your politics are on no way abhorrent they're just a bit different you need to acknowledge that

 

[luka]

But you've wrung coherent paragraphs out of cumlately which is impressive in itself

 

[droid]

Jesus fucking Christ, in what universe is having your home destroyed not a fairly big deal? I'm not talking about Hyacinth Bucket losing a couple of her prize petunias here, people were made homeless. Somewhat more inconvenient than being made late for work.

And yes, I heard and read an awful lot about the root causes of the riots. They're serious and important issues - obviously. That doesn't justify an attitude of "yeah, so some people lost everything they owned, big deal".

This is a total straw man and you must know it.

Nobody is defending rioting. I had a mate on another forum who lived above that carpet shop. But tell me, is someones home being destroyed as big a deal as the murder of a black man by the police, followed by a cover up, a whitewash, and a media and establishment black propaganda campaign? Houses have insurance.

 

[droid]

That doesn't mean I don't sympathise, it just means that I'm not going to let that get in the way of a proper analysis of root causes, or indeed even a certain mischievous wonder at these little earthquakes when they occur.

There's also the fact that pretty much every social gain we've ever made has come from violence and/or civil disobedience. Thats not a clarion call, just a simple fact. Power only understands power.

 

[Leo]

The next gentrification ticking time bomb: crochetgate http://gothamist.com/2015/09/18/bushwick_crochet_gentrification.php

Luckily, local anarchists are at the ready to protest "The Brutality Represented By This Crocheted Artwork" : http://gothamist.com/2015/09/27/anarchists_protest_bushwick_flea_an.php

 

[luka]

a lysergic warrior-poet-mystic or however you wish to style yourself

I know your trying to be clever or whatever but has it ever occurred to you that might actually not be a poseur but am actually exactly who I claim to be?

 

[luka]

????? That I might actually be capable of doing things that not only are beyond you but are beyond your capacity to even understand? Are you really so arrogant? I don't think I can understand your science work so? I've been shooting my mouth off online for 13 years and no one has ever challenged me, not once. Maybe that's cos I'm not lying?

 

[luka]

It's a very middle England position. Anyone claiming to be different is just a pseud. Eat your blamange you're just like the rest of us stop acting up

 

[luka]

It's just something to think about

 

[luka]

Perhaps I am an actual poet? like actually can do things you can't? Is that such a crazy idea? Why so arrogant?

 

[droid]

You have to take some responsibility for this. You cant incessantly personalise discussions and not expect some occasional blowback.

 

[Mr. Tea]

This is a total straw man and you must know it.

Nobody is defending rioting. I had a mate on another forum who lived above that carpet shop. But tell me, is someones home being destroyed as big a deal as the murder of a black man by the police, followed by a cover up, a whitewash, and a media and establishment black propaganda campaign? Houses have insurance.

Oh come off it, who's strawmanning now? When did I ever say Mark Duggan's death was a good, or even acceptable, thing? His death was a bad thing, the coverup was a bad thing, the other social conditions that lead to the riots were (and still are) bad things, and the fact that ordinary people were harmed in the riots is a bad thing. Surely you accept that it's possible to hold these opinions simultaneously?

 

[Mr. Tea]

You have to take some responsibility for this. You cant incessantly personalise discussions and not expect some occasional blowback.

Hey, I'm sorry for that dig, it was unfair. I still think you're mischaracterizing me though. This is all getting very silly, you know I like you in real life and respect your talents.