"I'm trad, dad!"
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WashYourHands
Cat Malogen
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Lasch is wrong though. The real problem with feminism is that it's a craft union ideology applied to the gender question, this applies just as much to fourth wave as it does to third wave. It's about having a monopoly on admission to the shop floor.
not to go into grumpy shaykh mode but the yasss queeen aspect is its sole real material content. And I have no issue with this. If feminists want to pursue grubby material self-advancement, then I'm all ears and will back em 100%. It's the ideological subtext of liberation which is the problem inasmuch as bourgeois ideology does not want to admit it has inherited class civilisation and seeks a universality stuck in the 18th century. Fourth Wave only takes the worst ideological aspects of third wave and elevates them to gargantuan proportions.
essentially this is why one can draw a line of continuity between feminism and terfism. There is a clearly defined lineage and the problematisation of gender in a real sense disrupts the role of the self-anointed high priestesses of ideological liberation. In the same way that people who write about imigration will have a lot to lose when imigration policy is actually altered in line with their prescriptions. Elvis was contemptible light shit but 'a little less conversation', is a mantra @suspended should keep in mind.
Incidentally why infinite thought is shagging a blockhead because uncultivated bourgeois intellectuals attract each other. Jog on.
Incidentally why infinite thought is shagging a blockhead because uncultivated bourgeois intellectuals attract each other. Jog on.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I'm not. You and the original "lefty" author you're referring to set those terms.
quoting Roger Scruton, the very embodiment of the post-postmodernism reactionary intellectual
or the original piece you're referring to which says
a lefty woman in her 20s/early 30s said:
(btw literally her next queued article is about why sex work should continue to be stigmatized and it's every bit as dumb as that premise sounds)
we're not talking about a serious engagement with "class anxiety and the rise of cities", we're talking about a reactionary impulse to harken back to a nonexistent golden age for ideological reasons. the very point is that traditionalism doesn't respect or care about actual traditions, so has generally nothing to say about what actual traditions might or might not be worth holding onto and why. it's just, as luka said, some Western Civ stock image next to Decline of Western Civ stock image.
that is, we're not talking about reactionary movements that actually come from "the people" - the Vendée, the Cristeros, etc - which despite usually including or allying themselves to unsavory elements do have a complicated relationship with modernism. we're talking about conscious ideological efforts to tie morality etc to a particular vision of society in a particular historical moment - or rather an idealized, mythical form of that vision which never actually existed in the first place.
without presuming to speak for the dead, I reckon Graeber would have quickly + neatly sorted you/anyone better than I ever could on the difference between tradition and "traditonalism".
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I don't rate Lasch like some people here, or on the Internet in general
tho having said, he'd very likely be aghast that reactionaries cite him as a prophet these days
he didn't think tradition was "good" so much as anything that served as a bulwark against corporate hegemony was probably desirable
everything else being subordinated to that concern
hence he looks excellent when it comes to something like woke capitalism and terrible when it comes to basically any type of modern identity politics
tho having said, he'd very likely be aghast that reactionaries cite him as a prophet these days
he didn't think tradition was "good" so much as anything that served as a bulwark against corporate hegemony was probably desirable
everything else being subordinated to that concern
hence he looks excellent when it comes to something like woke capitalism and terrible when it comes to basically any type of modern identity politics
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
seriously tho - anyone cite any "traditionalist" movement of any time, any place, that doesn't draw on some mythical golden age to return to
any real veneration of tradition - rather than the use of tradition to serve a contemporary ideological end - is inherently about grappling with tradition and why it's worth venerating, if in fact it is. traditions aren't static, fixed things. like anything, they're constantly evolving, be the rate of evolution fast or glacially slow. any return to a fixed point in time, or a mythical version of that point, is therefore artificial.
also, by the time traditions become codified it means they're no longer traditions or there wouldn't be a need to formally codify them. for example, see chivalry in the High Middle Ages, the Imperial Japanese military's obsession with the Hagakure version of bushido, or the endless list of late Republican and Imperial Roman authors bemoaning the decline of the mos maiorum (famously summed up by Cicero - the Lasch of his day - as "O tempora, o mores!") - all cases, incidentally, where tradition was the enshrinement of ruling class self-interest and its decline was synonymous with the extension of privilege in some form.
any real veneration of tradition - rather than the use of tradition to serve a contemporary ideological end - is inherently about grappling with tradition and why it's worth venerating, if in fact it is. traditions aren't static, fixed things. like anything, they're constantly evolving, be the rate of evolution fast or glacially slow. any return to a fixed point in time, or a mythical version of that point, is therefore artificial.
also, by the time traditions become codified it means they're no longer traditions or there wouldn't be a need to formally codify them. for example, see chivalry in the High Middle Ages, the Imperial Japanese military's obsession with the Hagakure version of bushido, or the endless list of late Republican and Imperial Roman authors bemoaning the decline of the mos maiorum (famously summed up by Cicero - the Lasch of his day - as "O tempora, o mores!") - all cases, incidentally, where tradition was the enshrinement of ruling class self-interest and its decline was synonymous with the extension of privilege in some form.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
tbh that's kind of a stretch thinking about it. definitely a comparison as self-aggrandizing gadflies focused on the decline of "traditional values".
but Cicero was a ruling class bootlicker - yr classic scholarship boy who becomes more toff than the toffs - in a way that Lasch, tbf, never was
Traditional and conservative. minimalism was a reaction against modernism. Enjoyable as mindfood but not challenging enough technically, just repeating motifs with no rhythmic interlocking groove you get in say, gnawa, which creates percussive trancelike momentum. It's a cliched bathos, Ligeti is where it is at, pure antimystical piano music with cosmic scope. Penderecki also before he capitulated to harmony was shattering the concept of intensity - quite a bit of good stuff from places like Poland, Hungary etc. But of course Hungarians aren't really Americans so...
It's too courtly, too churchy and too stately. It is powerful, for sure, but nowhere near somber enough. The clarinet does not cry. Empty music for empty people who wouldn't have heard of Aristotle if us 'dirty ah-rabs' didn't rediscover it for you. It is beautiful, for sure, but not beautifully apparent. It is a conscious attempt to be beautified, not beautiful in the moment, warts and dissonances included. It's airbrushed, all acutely tuned.
Much more tonally rewarding.
Ode to Joy, famously inspired by Ottoman mehter janissary band music.
Luke don't bother listen to the original stuff on mushrooms
luka
Well-known member
Have to agree with this point.
Bartok is fucking good.