Brexit Day

[john eden]

Let's interrupt the raging debate briefly for....

John's audit of street-based insurrection in London - August 2021 edition!​

Premiere League

• Great showings from anti-vaxx Qanon nutjobs! These guys are on fire! (unfortunately not literally)
• Extinction Rebellion just kicking off a week of serious disruption in London, fair play.
• Also a quite good demo opposing the Police Bill

Bubbling Under

• PCS Union strike against low pay in the Royal Parks
• National Weekend of Action Against Deportations

Tumbleweed

Anything about rejoining the EU

 

[IdleRich]

The debate rages on! The rage! People talk of nothing else! Never before has the fate of salad eaters in Derby so utterly gripped the nation.

But did the people vote for parties standing on a Remain/Return platform? No, somehow they absolutely did not.

So perhaps there is a new cohesive political project to rejoin the EU - like the mirror image of James Goldsmith's Referendum Party in the early 1990s? From small acorns? Nope?

But do not worry my friends, there is rage and oh so many words.

Maybe if there is enough of this rage, the people will erupt into an insurrectionist movement that takes to the streets and seizes power? Yes that must be the plan. Rage and Marina Hyde columns will transform into an anti-parliamentary shit-kicking revolution that will get us to rejoining the neoliberal trading block with increasingly fortified borders that we love so much.

Comrades! To arms!

Yes obviously lots of people are angry and arguing about it everywhere.
As you surely know, more people voted for Remain parties than otherwise.
You've gone a bit weird on this one John. Being sarcastic doesn't change the number of angry people. And dismissing lost jobs and businesses as 'salad eaters in Derby' is... I would say disingenuous if pathetic wasn't so much more apt.
I don't know why you are so keen to just move on... obviously there can't be the groundswell of opinion that you think is gonna get Biden to reinvade Afghanistan, but regardless of how you voted, your "let's just forget about it" is a Leave stance, in fact it's the only one now cos there are no arguments.
Why is it you've swung round three times now to say 'stop talking about this'? Why with such dumb arguments?
There is no debate? Come on...
'Do not worry friends, there is rage" - oh fuck off.

 

[john eden]

My point is simply that I've never misunderstood my feelings for being a cohesive political project.

It's absolutely wild that I am being portrayed as a bug eyed Brexiteer who is trying to SiLenCe the moderate voices of remain for saying this.

But this underlines my point, made over several years, that people are failing to undertand each other on this issue.

 

[IdleRich]

Let's interrupt the raging debate briefly for....

John's audit of street-based insurrection in London - August 2021 edition!​

Premiere League

• Great showings from anti-vaxx Qanon nutjobs! These guys are on fire! (unfortunately not literally)
• Extinction Rebellion just kicking off a week of serious disruption in London, fair play.
• Also a quite good demo opposing the Police Bill

Bubbling Under

• PCS Union strike against low pay in the Royal Parks
• National Weekend of Action Against Deportations

Tumbleweed

Anything about rejoining the EU

Well seeing as in my lifetime street based protests have achieved the square root of fuck all, I don't think that's the zinger you think it is.
Interesting to learn that if you selectively look in just one place you can distort the overall picture.
Debate happens in many places these days... have you heard of the internet?

 

[IdleRich]

My point is simply that I've never misunderstood my feelings for being a cohesive political project.

It's absolutely wild that I am being portrayed as a bug eyed Brexiteer who is trying to SiLenCe the moderate voices of remain for saying this.

But this underlines my point, made over several years, that people are failing to undertand each other on this issue.

It's not my feelings though is it, it's people losing their jobs, it's people not being able to get the food they want... though I agree that if I stop posting those things then it would be easier to pretend it's just me.
And honestly don't you think that point about salad eaters in Derby was both spiteful and embarrassing?

 

[john eden]

Well seeing as in my lifetime street based protests have achieved the square root of fuck all, I don't think that's the zinger you think it is.
Interesting to learn that if you selectively look in just one place you can distort the overall picture.
Debate happens in many places these days... have you heard of the internet?

Well the poll rax riots got rid of Thatcher AND the poll tax and Anti-Fascist Action smashed Blood & Honour and Combat 18 off the streets of London, and the IRA bombed their way to the negotiating table and Extinction Rebellion have put climate change properly on the agenda over the last few years.

During that time, what has raging impotently on internet forums changed?

I assumed that the Rejoin EU movement was a street based insurrectionary one because of the complete lack of success by pro-Remain parties (the LibDems and Greens) at the last election and the absence of any new electoral formations.

But if the plan is for everyone to rage on Twitter until the government sees the error of its ways then good luck with it that, I guess. I suppose it is at least cathartic.

 

[IdleRich]

My point is simply that I've never misunderstood my feelings for being a cohesive political project.

It's absolutely wild that I am being portrayed as a bug eyed Brexiteer who is trying to SiLenCe the moderate voices of remain for saying this.

I dunno about bug eyed but you are arguing for people to shut up and by default that is a brexiter stance.

 

[john eden]

It's not my feelings though is it, it's people losing their jobs, it's people not being able to get the food they want... though I agree that if I stop posting those things then it would be easier to pretend it's just me.
And honestly don't you think that point about salad eaters in Derby was both spiteful and embarrassing?

My point was that supermarket shelves at various locations around the UK have been a lightning rod for the more eccentric referendum fetishists on both sides.

Please explain the ratio of

posts you make on here : jobs created

is it

10,000 posts : 1 job ?

 

[john eden]

I dunno about bug eyed but you are arguing for people to shut up and by default that is a brexiter stance.

Where have I said that? You are deranged.

I've said it's a waste of time that won't change anything. Like the guy on the blood & fire forum working himself up into a lather every month about the price of seven inches increasing.

But obviously you can post what you like, knock yourself out. This thread is basically "Rich's blog about bad things that have happened after Brexit and how he can't comprehend that this is a thing" anyway.

 

[IdleRich]

Well the poll rax riots got rid of Thatcher AND the poll tax and Anti-Fascist Action smashed Blood & Honour and Combat 18 off the streets of London, and the IRA bombed their way to the negotiating table and Extinction Rebellion have put climate change properly on the agenda over the last few years.

During that time, what has raging impotently on internet forums changed?

I assumed that the Rejoin EU movement was a street based insurrectionary one because of the complete lack of success by pro-Remain parties (the LibDems and Greens) at the last election and the absence of any new electoral formations.

But if the plan is for everyone to rage on Twitter until the government sees the error of its ways then good luck with it that, I guess. I suppose it is at least cathartic.

Debate on the Internet where you can reach loads of people far more quickly has been very important. You may have heard of Me Too, Extinction Rebellion has spread at least as much online as in the streets, also QAnon.... Brexit is generally assumed to have been swung by internet mailouts, you've heard of Cambridge Analytica and so on right? Russian troll farms.
Sure the poll tax riots were a big victory but things have moved on now John. That was a looong time ago. I think you're applying the wrong metric and looking in the wrong places.
It's funny that you keep repeating 'rage' though almost like a real argument.

 

[IdleRich]

My point was that supermarket shelves at various locations around the UK have been a lightning rod for the more eccentric referendum fetishists on both sides.

Please explain the ratio of

posts you make on here : jobs created

is it

10,000 posts : 1 job ?

Eh?

 

[john eden]

Debate on the Internet where you can reach loads of people far more quickly has been very important. You may have heard of Me Too, Extinction Rebellion has spread at least as much online as in the streets, also QAnon.... Brexit is generally assumed to have been swung by internet mailouts, you've heard of Cambridge Analytica and so on right? Russian troll farms.
Sure the poll tax riots were a big victory but things have moved on now John. That was a looong time ago. I think you're applying the wrong metric and looking in the wrong places.
It's funny that you keep repeating 'rage' though almost like a real argument.

Well thanks Rich, I am not all that up on modern politics like you and am a bit stuck in the certaintities of the 1980s as you say.

Perhaps you will need to patiently explain to me what the plan is then?

I have got the first few steps in the timeline I think:

[referendum] -> [Brexit] -> [Talking on the internet] -> [??????????????] -> [rejoin the EU]

 

[IdleRich]

Brexit can be reversed at the ballot box. If the EU will have us.
The main way to win at the ballot box is to make something popular.
Showing repeatedly the huge number of problems that are caused by brexit and which could be solved by rejoining is hopefully a way to make rejoining more popular.
This tactic is particularly useful here cos brexit causes a particularly large number of unnecessary problems in a huge number of fields... I truly think that people hearing "sorry, no, cos of brexit" will start to get fed up of brexit.
Not just the brexit debate which you are apparently so fed up of you pretend it isn't happening.

 

[john eden]

Brexit can be reversed at the ballot box. If the EU will have us.
The main way to win at the ballot box is to make something popular.
Showing repeatedly the huge number of problems that are caused by brexit and which could be solved by rejoining is hopefully a way to make rejoining more popular.
This tactic is particularly useful here cos brexit causes a particularly large number of unnecessary problems in a huge number of fields... I truly think that people hearing "sorry, no, cos of brexit" will start to get fed up of brexit.
Not just the brexit debate which you are apparently so fed up of you pretend it isn't happening.

OK great, so it is an electoral project but one that is starting from a really low base?

What do you imagine the teams are going to weigh up like at the next general election in 2024?

• Big increase in votes for the greens and libdems?
• a return to remainerism for Starmer?
• U-turn for the tories?
• Or a new party?

 

[john eden]

Or I dunno - is 2024 too early? Is it more like 2029?

 

[IdleRich]

Well the problem is that brexit has also brought this attack on democracy from the Tory party which will make em harder to dislodge.
But hopefully brexit will become so toxic that any and all of the above could occur- certainly Labour should switch to remain, under KS or not.
Slightly different issue but to defeat Tories, Lib and Labour should form a coalition, it seems their only chance but at the moment they refuse... but they should and it should be a rejoin coalition.
But making brexit from something the tories are proud to have delivered to an embarrassment would be a good start. There is a reason so many people are lying about the causes of the problems, they don't want people to see what brexit is and for it to become toxic - I do.

 

[IdleRich]

2024 would be better of course. I mean who knows if EU will have us.
But Brexit is now tied to Johnson, Mogg etc ignoring the problems is giving them a free ride, I want these fuckers out.

 

[IdleRich]

A low base is a bit of a weird thing to say. It's more than half the country want to rejoin and it's a huge issue for many cos it impinges on so much. Remain parties keep getting more votes. We need electoral reform but this is a catch 22 cos I don't see electoral reform with tories in power and I don't see Tories defeated until there is electoral reform... dunno what to suggest there.

 

[john eden]

I mean that's fair enough Rich and I would like the Tories out as well obviously.

What I mean by a low base is that when given a choice at the ballot box most people at the last election (by quite a large proportion) did not vote for parties that absolutely centred remain in their policies.

So I do agree with you that this is an issue which a lot of people feel passionate about but I think when it comes to voting they care more about other things.

My guess is that as time goes on Brexit will just become part of the wallpaper to be honest. I might be wrong about that, but people to tend to get used to things.

I think there are major problems that come out it but these will be short to medium term. In the short term Brexit supporters will blame the problems on the EU and that - and COVID (plus probably Boris going) - will tide the Tories through to 2024.

In the medium term I think people will get used to stuff and other issues like climate change will begin to bite more. And the EU will have its own problems that might be offputting for people.

In terms of the Labour Party I will defer to my esteemed colleagues @craner , @DannyL , and @subvert47 (and also @Mr. Tea but I won't see his posts personally)

But I honestly can't see Starmer returning to Remain. His focus has been on toadying up to the Red Wall. That North/South divide isn't going away in the Labour party base any time soon.

In terms of electoral pacts the only serious game in town (based on seats in the commons today) is Lab/Scots Nats. Possibly the LibDems will pick up more seats in 2024 but they are just as likely to go into a pact with the Tories anyway. You'd hope the Greens would be on the up too but not yet.

Anyway, we will see. I remain (if you will forgive the pun) sceptical myself. And as I've said before I think there is a risk that some people put all their eggs into the Return basket at the expense of very pressing issues around climate change etc.

Plus as I've said before, if challenging the deterioration in the standard of living that follows Brexit and COVID is carved out around Remain/Brexit identities then it will be divide and conquer.

 

[subvert47]

In terms of the Labour Party I will defer to my esteemed colleagues @craner , @DannyL , and @subvert47 (and also @Mr. Tea but I won't see his posts personally)

As to that, I'm now at the point that the Labour Party can get in the fucking sea as far as I'm concerned.