john eden

male pale and stale
As to that, I'm now at the point that the Labour Party can get in the fucking sea as far as I'm concerned.
Well this is what seems to be happening tbf.

I, for one, would not be pinning my ribbon on that horse in a race on whether or not we would re-enter a neoliberal trading bloc with increasingly fortified borders.

But then I am an anarchocommunist nerd who wants to abolish money. Fortunately for us all Idle Rich has a firmer grip on the realpolitik.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
What I mean by a low base is that when given a choice at the ballot box most people at the last election (by quite a large proportion) did not vote for parties that absolutely centred remain in their policies.
So I do agree with you that this is an issue which a lot of people feel passionate about but I think when it comes to voting they care more about other things.
But they voted for parties that are pro remain. The fact we take the opposite conclusion from the same vote shows the problem with reading a single issue from a party vote.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
My guess is that as time goes on Brexit will just become part of the wallpaper to be honest. I might be wrong about that, but people to tend to get used to things.
I think there are major problems that come out it but these will be short to medium term. In the short term Brexit supporters will blame the problems on the EU and that - and COVID (plus probably Boris going) - will tide the Tories through to 2024.
Everything i have read suggests the problems will be long term.
People will forget brexit caused the problems if we let them though, yeah. That's why I think it's really important to keep banging on.
 

sufi

lala
Impunity is a massive issue, and getting the tories to pay for their shitty governance would be great, better still if it's via the streets and the courts than through another numbingly futile election, but the brexit horsey has bolted. and i don't think getting the eu to open the stable door again is a realistic or imminent prospect

i must say that eden is getting mighty flippant these days, but i also worry Rich that you're getting pointlessly wound up by twitter trolls where the "debate" still "rages" on,

in a way the pandemic has been a very useful distraction from brexit for the govt, but the effects of brexit are huge and hard to measure, let alone to definitively assign responsibility - for instance anything from lorry drivers to stagflation are caused by lots of factors, even if they are clearly exacerbated by the b word.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
in a way the pandemic has been a very useful distraction from brexit for the govt, but the effects of brexit are huge and hard to measure, let alone to definitively assign responsibility - for instance anything from lorry drivers to stagflation are caused by lots of factors, even if they are clearly exacerbated by the b word.

Yeah it has provided invaluable cover. I think a lot of people pretending to blame it know the truth deep down though.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I'm only flippant because I recognise my complete irrelevance. There are battles to fight and people will disagree on tactics. But we're not Major Generals sitting here with armies to deploy.
 

sufi

lala
Impunity is a massive issue, and getting the tories to pay for their shitty governance would be great, better still if it's via the streets and the courts than through another numbingly futile election, but the brexit horsey has bolted. and i don't think getting the eu to open the stable door again is a realistic or imminent prospect

i must say that eden is getting mighty flippant these days, but i also worry Rich that you're getting pointlessly wound up by twitter trolls where the "debate" still "rages" on,

in a way the pandemic has been a very useful distraction from brexit for the govt, but the effects of brexit are huge and hard to measure, let alone to definitively assign responsibility - for instance anything from lorry drivers to stagflation are caused by lots of factors, even if they are clearly exacerbated by the b word.
I'm finding it hard to decypher what point i'm even trying to make here, but equally eden "ignore it" & rich "embrace the pain" are not positioning themselves very clearly either when it comes to actually addressing the issues or moving shit fwd

what is galling is that the US have moved on from their troll junta (admittedly to a flaccid sort of fotherington-tomas regime) while the UK is still stuck with a clown pantomime government for the forseeable
 

sufi

lala
I'm finding it hard to decypher what point i'm even trying to make here, but equally eden "ignore it" & rich "embrace the pain" are not positioning themselves very clearly either when it comes to actually addressing the issues or moving shit fwd

what is galling is that the US have moved on from their troll junta (admittedly to a flaccid sort of fotherington-tomas regime) while the UK is still stuck with a clown pantomime government for the forseeable
the whole splittism that brexit has caused has been incredibly damaging and is in your face in a way that the longer term effects are not
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I'm finding it hard to decypher what point i'm even trying to make here, but equally eden "ignore it" & rich "embrace the pain" are not positioning themselves very clearly either when it comes to actually addressing the issues or moving shit fwd

what is galling is that the US have moved on from their troll junta (admittedly to a flaccid sort of fotherington-tomas regime) while the UK is still stuck with a clown pantomime government for the forseeable
I do see brexit and this Tory government as intertwined and it is frustrating that while Trumpism has been dethroned (at least temporarily), we are still stuck with both.
The move on thing though... I don't get it at all precisely cos I see them as so intertwined, you might as well say, stop being against the Tories.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Impunity is a massive issue, and getting the tories to pay for their shitty governance would be great, better still if it's via the streets and the courts than through another numbingly futile election, but the brexit horsey has bolted. and i don't think getting the eu to open the stable door again is a realistic or imminent prospect

i must say that eden is getting mighty flippant these days, but i also worry Rich that you're getting pointlessly wound up by twitter trolls where the "debate" still "rages" on,

in a way the pandemic has been a very useful distraction from brexit for the govt, but the effects of brexit are huge and hard to measure, let alone to definitively assign responsibility - for instance anything from lorry drivers to stagflation are caused by lots of factors, even if they are clearly exacerbated by the b word.
Aside from that, this is a great post.

I generally try to avoid sounding like Luka but the whole Brexit escapade showed us abundantly clearly that there is more going on than a series of rational choices that are made by logical people in their own interests.

So I just think repeatedly saying "this is bad" "this doesn't make any sense" won't get you very far. Precisely because it so entrenched and tied up with identity. It could be COVID, it could be Brexit. The supermarket shelves are full or they're not or it doesn't matter.

I'm not saying ignore it, but I do agree that "the brexit horsey has bolted".

We went through this last year, but there are real struggles happening right now about pay and redundancies and the end of furlough and evictions. And there will be more cuts and there will be stuff happening around climate change.

There will be campaigns around these struggles. The way to win these campaigns is to force concessions out of the ruling class. If the rest of us can unite around some achievable goals, we stand a chance of stemming the tide of evil. It is harder to do this if these campaigns fracture into handwringing around who voted for what in the referendum. It just won't work.

If the price of admission to a renters union (for example) is to admit that you were a terrible person for voting for Brexit, then in some areas of the country you are seriously reducing the pool of people who can be members.
 
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