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IdleRich

IdleRich
"Trust this one guy who agrees with me, and not those other experts who make up the entire worldwide medical establishment."

These are academic pro statisticians you're flailing at lol

Tea has got a point here... conspiracy theorists who reject the mainstream view of scientific experts in favour of a minority theory cannot simply advance lines saying "Trust the expert" or "I think he knows more about it than you do" as that is really an argument for the mainstream position ie the one supported by the majority of and the most highly regarded of people "who know more about it than you do".

That's not to say that one can't hold the minority view, it's just that anyone who does has to find their own arguments for it, they can't just appeal to authority as that's self-defeating, and they need to make it look as though they don't just choose to believe those who agree with them cos if they do that everyone will realise what a prick they are.
 

mixed_biscuits

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Tea has got a point here... conspiracy theorists who reject the mainstream view of scientific experts in favour of a minority theory cannot simply advance lines saying "Trust the expert" or "I think he knows more about it than you do" as that is really an argument for the mainstream position ie the one supported by the majority of and the most highly regarded of people "who know more about it than you do".

That's not to say that one can't hold the minority view, it's just that anyone who does has to find their own arguments for it, they can't just appeal to authority as that's self-defeating, and they need to make it look as though they don't just choose to believe those who agree with them cos if they do that everyone will realise what a prick they are.
Shilling hard for those who have the €€€ to create the 'majority opinion'
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
There are such things as 'logic', the 'null hypothesis' and 'more vaxxed dying than unvaxxed in the Pfizer trial'
If the vaccine had absolutely no negative effects on health - let's call that the null hypothesis, since you've obviously read that phrase somewhere recently and decided it sounds cool - then, in a trial with a very large number of participants, some of whom are likely to die in a given period since human beings are mortal, and if two equal-sized cohorts are given the vaccine and the placebo, which I understand is the usual practice, it follows that the probability of more deaths occurring in the vaccinated group is exactly 50%.
 

mixed_biscuits

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If the vaccine had absolutely no negative effects on health - let's call that the null hypothesis, since you've obviously read that phrase somewhere recently and decided it sounds cool - then, in a trial with a very large number of participants, some of whom are likely to die in a given period since human beings are mortal, and if two equal-sized cohorts are given the vaccine and the placebo, which I understand is the usual practice, it follows that the probability of more deaths occurring in the vaccinated group is exactly 50%.
No, the null is no effect on covid mortality
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
You only like shilling quite hard to create the second biggest opinion? Your whole argument seems to be "big-pharna bad, medium-pharma good".
I posted that clip of Piers 'Total Fucking Shithead' Corbyn accepting what he thought was ten grand from two guys pretending to represent a certain pharma company in return for promising to slag off other companies' products, and @mixed_biscuits's response was a rather head-scratching "well exactly!". Which I thought was odd, given that it shows that the UK's most high-profile anti-vaxxer is nothing but an amoral grifting schmuck. But there you go.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
I salute your perseverance, as I didn't actually get that far into it, but does he actually seek to show the vaccine is no better than the placebo by ignoring deaths from the virus?

So what he does is demonstrate a cute (and as far as I can tell, fairly well known) effect where if you've got two populations, one of which is increasing in size while the other is decreasing, and neither of which is dying at a greater rate than the other, and if you do your "how many people from each population are dying every week" calculation rather naively without accounting for some reporting delays then you get an effect where it looks like the people in the population whose size is decreasing are dying at a greater rate than the people in the population whose size is increasing (basically because you're fiddling with the denominators). With the delay that he hypothesizes, the peak of this effect looks like about a fourfold reduction in deaths, and it drops off to being negligible once you get near stable populations. I haven't checked the working, but it sounds plausible enough.

He then picks some ONS data for non-covid deaths and demonstrates that you get a similar pattern, although this demonstration is at a level of "look, these graphs have different x axis scales but they're kind-of similar looking - that seems consistent with there being a similar delay!"

He then doesn't do anything to try to demonstrate that this accounts for the apparent effectiveness of covid vaccines, but puts words like "vaccine", "placebo" and "statistical illusion" prominently in the title and sort of waggles his eyebrows suggestively and leaves it to people with an agenda to push to do their stuff.
 
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