Keir Starmer

subvert47

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
I mean there are people I'd like more, but who else from the even softish left would have a chance? Angela Rayner is second favourite at the bookies behind Andy Burnham (who is not going to be standing any time soon). And if Keith stays much longer the Labour party soon won't have a base at all.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
subvert47 said:
And if Keith stays much longer the Labour party soon won't have a base at all.
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First, I don't think this is true. Labour will always have some degree of traction with socially liberal people, if only for the reason that they've nowhere else to go. Second, the losing of so called Red Wall voters is about demographic changes that have nothing to do with him - those changes predate him. Third, the dude you wanted as lead runner gave the Tories an 80 fucking seat majority. I know it's ancient history now but there's been zero acknowledgement of this on the Labour Left let alone contrition. "Let's focus on how shit Starmer is, not why he's in an incredibly weak position".

I'd like Nandy as leader tbh. but I don't know how it'd play out. She's impressive to me from this distance as a local MP - very in touch with constituents or so it seems - and seems on top of her brief.
 
subvert47

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
DannyL said:
I saw a comment last night that Dawn Butler will mount a challenge post Batley & Spen, Idk how true it is though.
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It's probably just rumour-mill crap. She'd have no chance. All she'd do is cement Starmer's position.

DannyL said:
First, I don't think this is true. Labour will always have some degree of traction with socially liberal people, if only for the reason that they've nowhere else to go. Second, the losing of so called Red Wall voters is about demographic changes that have nothing to do with him - those changes predate him. Third, the dude you wanted as lead runner gave the Tories an 80 fucking seat majority. I know it's ancient history now but there's been zero acknowledgement of this on the Labour Left let alone contrition. "Let's focus on how shit Starmer is, not why he's in an incredibly weak position".

I'd like Nandy as leader tbh. but I don't know how it'd play out. She's impressive to me from this distance as a local MP - very in touch with constituents or so it seems - and seems on top of her brief.
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First, they are going elsewhere: Lib Dems, Greens. I notice the Lib Dems took another council seat from Labour the other day.

Second, this is about everywhere, not just the Red Wall. Keith is trying to play to the Red Wall, but nobody up here is listening. Mainly because nobody believes his play is anything but focus-group posturing. Meanwhile, other parts of the base are deserting. Matt Zarb-Cousin writes about this above.

Third, the excuses you're making for Starmer re demographics must then presumably also apply to Corbyn. If you really want to attribute blame on that account, try Tony Blair. As for contrition, you're forgetting John McDonnell. Otherwise, I don't see the Labour right showing any contrition for their part in the 2019 failure (probably because they would rather accept praise). In any case, Keith had his "I'm not Jeremy Corbyn" honeymoon period. That he's tanked since is entirely down to him being useless.

As for Nandy, okay, she could hardly be less effective than Keith. And no doubt she is working hard as shadow foreign secretary. But seeming like a good constituency MP is not much of an endorsement. My MP seems like a good constituency MP and he's Mark Spencer, the useless Tory yes-man-whoever-the-leader-is, now the government Chief Whip.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
First, they are going elsewhere: Lib Dems, Greens. I notice the Lib Dems took another council seat from Labour the other day.

Good. I'm happy with that, and happy with them having a role in a future coalition. If that involves tactical voting to dislodge Tories, great. The stronger they are, the better. The evil Tony Blair had a non aggression pact with the Lib Dems going into the '97 elections. Compare that to the frothing hatred of the Lib Dems coming from Corbynites before the last election.

In fact, the frothing hatred of everyone including swing voters who they might've need to win over. It might not be working but at least Starmer's tried to win over a different constituency. I don't recall Corbyn ever really trying to reach out beyond those who naturally supported him.

Third, the excuses you're making for Starmer re demographics must then presumably also apply to Corbyn.

True - mostly masked in his tenure as leader by a myriad of other incompetencies.

. As for contrition, you're forgetting John McDonnell.

I literally have never heard a Left commentator mention McDonnell and his, seemingly unique on the Left, ability to acknowledge failure. What we get instead, at volume, is a bunch of conspiracy theorising about how the RIght did 'em in and fantasy arithmetic about 2017. You know as well as I do that it's this dominates Left discourse, not consideration of any weaknesses of the failed project and its leader.

In any case, Keith had his "I'm not Jeremy Corbyn" honeymoon period. That he's tanked since is entirely down to him being useless.

And if he continues to bomb in the polls, he'll hopefully go before the next election. I hope the party will have the flexibility and electoral nous to do so. They have more chance of behaving like this now they aren't be led by a small ideological faction desperately trying to cling on.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
subvert47 said:
First, they are going elsewhere: Lib Dems, Greens. I notice the Lib Dems took another council seat from Labour the other day.
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One council seat? Quelle horreur!

The Greens admittedly did fairly well out of the recent local elections but by far the two biggest swings were away from Labour and towards the Tories. This does not suggest that the primary reason Labour are failing is that they're not left-wing enough.

It's interesting, too, that you want to heap blame on the only Labour leader to have won an election (never mind three of them) in the last 47 years. Would we be any better off if Labour had remained ideologically stuck in the 70s and we'd had uninterrupted Tory governments from Heath to the present day?
 
subvert47

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
Mr. Tea said:
One council seat? Quelle horreur!

The Greens admittedly did fairly well out of the recent local elections but by far the two biggest swings were away from Labour and towards the Tories. This does not suggest that the primary reason Labour are failing is that they're not left-wing enough.

It's interesting, too, that you want to heap blame on the only Labour leader to have won an election (never mind three of them) in the last 47 years. Would we be any better off if Labour had remained ideologically stuck in the 70s and we'd had uninterrupted Tory governments from Heath to the present day?
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1. One council election. One seat. Labour first, now third. We'll see what happens in Batley & Spen.

2. Except the fact that Labour's only successes were where they were left wing – e.g. Wales, Manchester, Salford, Preston – does suggest something like that.

3. I voted Labour in 1997 and 2001, even though I can't stand Tony Blair. He and Gordon Brown actually had ideas of what they wanted to do and Blair had the charisma to sell them (if not really to argue for them – which is why the Tories were able to wipe them all out later.) But yes, Blair's arrogance and complacency are to blame for the subsequent decline. He was fortunate as fuck to win in 2005 ("we have listened and learned" – bullshit) and he'd have lost in 2010. I'd have preferred that to having Brown take the fall. At least then Blair would have to shut up.

Mr. Tea said:
I'm afraid Starmer isn't going to spontaneously combust no matter how many times you call him "Keith."
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No, but he deserves to be called Keith anyway. He's useless.
 
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subvert47

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
DannyL said:
I'm happy with that, and happy with them having a role in a future coalition. If that involves tactical voting to dislodge Tories, great.
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Yes, anything that gets rid of Tories is good.

As for the rest of your post. I can't be bothered to reply to any of it. Your frothing hatred of Corbyn has clearly calcified.
 
craner

craner

Beast of Burden
The Welsh Labour party in the Senedd is precisely the kind of boring, technocratic gang of centre Left plodders I thought you despised, rather than a model for the future of democratic socialism.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Labour have held on to Batley and Spen, at least. Apparently their canvassers have been pelted with eggs and kicked in the head while canvassing.

Galloway is a fucking disease.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
He got 8000 votes odd which is worrying but otherwise, really glad they held on. I assume Leadbeater shares some of her late sister's politics? Jo Cox was always great.
 
craner

craner

Beast of Burden
I don't think Labour conducted themselves very well in their campaign either judging by that anti-Indian leaflet they put out. Galloway has always approached these elections with a strategy based on communitarianism and sectarianism: it's been his playbook since Bethnal Green and Bow in 2005, when it was a spectacular success. It hasn't worked since, but some people feel that Labour got sucked into it here.
 
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