pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
Never got the dead. And I tried! Some nice tunes here and there but never managed to glean that magic thing they're supposed to have
rave era as recapitulation of the sixties
- Thread starter Woebot
- Start date
Woebot
Well-known member
it sounds like you're basing this on "american beauty" or "working mans dead" which are completely uncharacteristic of the experience of the dead live or making judgements on the basis of what you assume the audience to be? the "hip" examples you give - none of them can hold a candle to the dead.
maybe check out grayfolded but even that doesn't quite get to the heart of it. or watch the netflix "long strange trip" doc.
it sounds like you've made your mind up so i've no idea why i'm bothering repping.
blissblogger
Well-known member
as it happens the Eighties in alternative rock involved a whole series of recapitulations of the Sixties
part 20 Year Rule of Revivalism, and part a reaction against Eighties politics, Thatcher-Reagan's own attempt to roll back the gains of the Sixties, vilification of that era
different phases or aspects of the Sixties (the Byrds, the Velvets, Carnaby Street, sometimes as focused as on a single specific year
e.g. Sonic Youth and Loop's obsession with 1969, "when the trip turned dark"
(incidentally i think 'darkside' is a component already of the sixties, it wasn't all flower power and tripping in the park, it could also be about delirium and orgiastic sonic violence, heaviness, going right out there, leaving your consciousness in tatters etc)
some of the Sixties-into-Eighties moves were more acute than others e.g. Blue Orchids, Meat Puppets
others really lame (a whole Carnaby Street, clothes-oriented revival based on bands with names like the Mood Six)
but yeah maybe all of that helped to put the Sixties on the agenda
e.g. The Shamen transitioning quickly from being Electric Prunes copyists to i dunno Marshall Jefferson wannabes
or Primal Scream's journey
part 20 Year Rule of Revivalism, and part a reaction against Eighties politics, Thatcher-Reagan's own attempt to roll back the gains of the Sixties, vilification of that era
different phases or aspects of the Sixties (the Byrds, the Velvets, Carnaby Street, sometimes as focused as on a single specific year
e.g. Sonic Youth and Loop's obsession with 1969, "when the trip turned dark"
(incidentally i think 'darkside' is a component already of the sixties, it wasn't all flower power and tripping in the park, it could also be about delirium and orgiastic sonic violence, heaviness, going right out there, leaving your consciousness in tatters etc)
some of the Sixties-into-Eighties moves were more acute than others e.g. Blue Orchids, Meat Puppets
others really lame (a whole Carnaby Street, clothes-oriented revival based on bands with names like the Mood Six)
but yeah maybe all of that helped to put the Sixties on the agenda
e.g. The Shamen transitioning quickly from being Electric Prunes copyists to i dunno Marshall Jefferson wannabes
or Primal Scream's journey
Last edited:
blissblogger
Well-known member
acieed communism
two of the common thematics in sixties and rave alongside the spiritual outward reach thing Matthew identifies
- idea of play power and the cult of childhood
c.f. the exorbitant sufficiency / living in the radiant blessed now thing that Mark goes on about in the intro to Acid Communism
a life beyond drudgery and 9 to 5
the problem for both Sixties and rave is the issue of production and reproduction
since both depend on the material bounty, technology and cash in flow from 'straight' society
neither moment figured out the problem of production, of how to keep making all this stuff (one way would be to give up the addiction to all this stuff, pare your needs right back down - go back to the land, which is what the commune movement tried to do)
reproduction meaning actual kids rather than adults wishing to go back to being kids - what's the best structure for doing that, bringing up the next generation
as soon as you get into being a parent, the raving lifestyle becomes untenable
Sixties had all these attempts to break down the nuclear family - expanded quasi-kinship structures, communal living again etc
however - anecdotally, hearing about it from people who actually grew up as children in communes - it's not necessarily the best environment for children to grow up in terms of psychological and emotional stability
kids growing up basically barely parented, cos their mother and father were too busy with self-discovery etc etc - often having big problems later in life
apart from the travelers maybe, 90s rave didn't have any of that aspect of lifestyle improvisation, new structures - people just went at it HARD and then collapsed back into coupledom, domesticity, nuclear family
two of the common thematics in sixties and rave alongside the spiritual outward reach thing Matthew identifies
- idea of play power and the cult of childhood
c.f. the exorbitant sufficiency / living in the radiant blessed now thing that Mark goes on about in the intro to Acid Communism
a life beyond drudgery and 9 to 5
the problem for both Sixties and rave is the issue of production and reproduction
since both depend on the material bounty, technology and cash in flow from 'straight' society
neither moment figured out the problem of production, of how to keep making all this stuff (one way would be to give up the addiction to all this stuff, pare your needs right back down - go back to the land, which is what the commune movement tried to do)
reproduction meaning actual kids rather than adults wishing to go back to being kids - what's the best structure for doing that, bringing up the next generation
as soon as you get into being a parent, the raving lifestyle becomes untenable
Sixties had all these attempts to break down the nuclear family - expanded quasi-kinship structures, communal living again etc
however - anecdotally, hearing about it from people who actually grew up as children in communes - it's not necessarily the best environment for children to grow up in terms of psychological and emotional stability
kids growing up basically barely parented, cos their mother and father were too busy with self-discovery etc etc - often having big problems later in life
apart from the travelers maybe, 90s rave didn't have any of that aspect of lifestyle improvisation, new structures - people just went at it HARD and then collapsed back into coupledom, domesticity, nuclear family
Murphy
cat malogen
Getting off topic, but have to agree to disagree. They’re a personal favourite & possibly one of the few acts I’d speak with any conviction about. Deffo more than one string to their repertoire. Add bluegrass, jazz, funk, even Miles Davis opened for them. One of the strongest performing bands anywhere ‘68-early 80’s. Like the oil to Zappa’s water. God knows how many hours of shows listened to to date, even got to Wembley 1990. That gig was surreal because it was full of people tripping like my Dad, but with a younger contingent blitzed on e’s too. A brief overlap. Dancing was the clearest parallel. Overall, big influence on sound systems & the collective supplication of encounters with chattering angels & demons that most good music brings.
German music seemed particularly redeeming for that post-war generation. Another fixation. So utterly beguiling, honest & the use of repetition taken to masterly levels. Check Walter Wegmuller’s Tarot. Short-lived, 68-72 primo period? Guess tastes regarding aesthetics are a veneer into personality, but I suspect both periods had more than their fair share of schizoid casualties, if the mental health of some friends & relatives are anything to go by.
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
WashYourHands or Matthew, pls hip me to a definitive recording of the Dead pls. I want to understand
luka
Well-known member
luka
Well-known member
I didn't bother listening to it lol. It was from the bloke that wrote this http://psypressuk.com/2014/12/03/acid-a-new-secret-history-of-lsd-by-david-black/
Murphy
cat malogen
Went to the continent off n on throughout the late 80’s-mid 90’s, various sites around Britain too. Heroin, then ketamine, supported by a hyper aggressive policing policy at home, created a dark, dysfunctional social landscape. Cliche upon cliche, you can only hear “site, techno, rig & truck” in one sentence so many times before stabbing. Music got comedic, compounded by kids appearing without the life skills to avoid trouble & public school Tristrams passed out pissing themselves surrounded by packs of dogs. Taken as a source of pride, ultimate gimpy social norm, completely ruined the free party world. No alternative than to leave Britain.
Coming home did lead to breeding, but a lot later than most people. Another site diatribe is the way children could be “left”, abandoned is a better word, to communal teaching. Brilliant idea in theory if everyone is on board & committed, drop a lot of familial baggage, but sick when children end up abused & neglected. I hope that delay & having the time to mature will, at the very least, create a more stable batch of adults for the future.
Murphy
cat malogen
Not saying everything they did was savant, but they’re the band from that period I associate most with dance, even if the below aren’t the best representation of that. Inter Avinit, just different.
Cock swinging throughout warning
Compare 72 to 76
There should be a Dark Star & St Stephen in there too.Try the Apocalypse Now Sessions for a decent side project that’s the polar opposite,
Side swipe reads
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24018798-san-francisco-and-the-long-60s
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/1187180.Mindfuckers
Last edited:
Leo
Well-known member
a good friend was into both black flag and the dead, which sounds odd at first but greg ginn pushed latter-day BF into long jams and everyone in the band, including Rollins, had long hair by that point, so kind of makes sense.
anyway, he used to go see the dead every time they rolled through in the 80s/early 90s (I think around 30-40 times total), and kept saying I needed to come with him some day, under the premise that anyone who's into music should go see the dead play at least once. he finally got sick of my avoiding the topic and bought an extra ticket to a late-80s show at Madison square garden. I'm so glad he did, because it was a great experience...the music, the scene, everything. when it was done, he confirmed i'd seen them on a good night, Garcia neither strung out nor in declining health.
I've never listened to an entire dead album and have little interest in investigating them further, but I totally respect and appreciate them.
anyway, he used to go see the dead every time they rolled through in the 80s/early 90s (I think around 30-40 times total), and kept saying I needed to come with him some day, under the premise that anyone who's into music should go see the dead play at least once. he finally got sick of my avoiding the topic and bought an extra ticket to a late-80s show at Madison square garden. I'm so glad he did, because it was a great experience...the music, the scene, everything. when it was done, he confirmed i'd seen them on a good night, Garcia neither strung out nor in declining health.
I've never listened to an entire dead album and have little interest in investigating them further, but I totally respect and appreciate them.
How about the drugs. New non-addictive drugs, so not so stigmatizing enabling them to permeate in a wider sub cultural movement, branded, so more easy to directly link to a subculture, and capable of creating profound shared experiences. I think they both added a lot of oxygen to the fire.
yeah but obscure in those days just meant shit that didn't make money. like sometimes stuff has to cedament before it becomes truly popular. Thinking of Stravinsky's right of spring for instance.
That's the point though. They should have come up with an earth shattering formula, and made 100 records just retweaking it rather than integrating things into their repertoire. that's why King Sunny Ade for instance is so great. that's why dub records are still so strange to this day. innovation is a bit of a market illusion. It does exist, but it can't be plotted linearly, it's more like a big bang effect, cataclysmically dispersing in all sorts of unpredictable directions.
That's also what's good about Miles 70s direction, he was hugely influenced by Sly Stone but did not try to sound like them, which would have been horrible, why imitate something that is already great, sly ofc...
you should have just gone to the orbit or house of god you posh hippy.
free parties were mainly for lifestyle anarchists, unless it was the praxis/datacide lot (full on speedcore/hard acid/ harsh noise and mutant jungle) proper communists would go to legal clubs and blend in, have a chat about the merits of organic centralism v council communism in the smoking area. gotta be oblique.
There was once an excellent group: 'free parties, how to grass them up' on facebook, and I wish it was still around.
that london acid tekno stuff is some of the worst music around as well, just an endless rip off of hardfloor. obvs fuck goa is a classic but otherwise nah.
There was once an excellent group: 'free parties, how to grass them up' on facebook, and I wish it was still around.
that london acid tekno stuff is some of the worst music around as well, just an endless rip off of hardfloor. obvs fuck goa is a classic but otherwise nah.
Murphy
cat malogen
They did.
replace records for thousands of gigs across four decades, never played the same tune the same way, never repeated a set-list (allegedly), invented PA rigs that defined how clarity & volume of sound could be optimised which most sound systems since have been based around & were gracious enough to let the taping of concerts carry on allowing the music to reach parts others couldn't (or wouldn't).
Did The Orbit m8 despite it being in Leeds. Weatherall in full effect, CJ Bolland & Speedy J, memory farts are fading, M1 an alleyway of light streamed distortions.
Again, you project a very narrow world view on to a world far broader & varied than you allow in. Chris Liberator & all his kind are guilty of appalling crimes against culture, but you don't have a genuine handle on the free party world, unless this is troll humour about differences between smoking areas (lol what) & rolling out stock 2nd-hand witness definitions of political stances are a "thing".
Good music, under the stars, with a decent rig & an open crowd who can roll with expecting the unexpected. It's as simple as that. DiY, Weatherall, Tonka when they were ON, Smokescreen to some extent, Lazy House, all manner of shindigs around Berkshire just to get a blast of zoned House on a Sunday afternoon. There are worse addictions. Even some of the tekno folks more than proved their true character - Desert Storm, Keith (rip) mainly, for what they did in the Balkans as a caveat simply for the balls to get on with it (disregarding what they played, just not my groove) & the Subhead party in a dry-docked submarine (demented).