Election 2020

[john eden]

I guess I don't see it as a game, really. I find it genuinely upsetting. 4 people died and fuck knows how disastrous the consequences will be.

It is bad that they died, but come on.

 

[luka]

I can't remember the exact phrasing but the quote about cock up and conspiracy comes to mind.
I mean, who are these "big boys" you are alluding to? Biden? Shadowy Dem funders? Mark Zuckerberg and Silicon Valley?

Just to respond directly to this persistent innuendo I don't think it's Jews. I am categorically stating for the record that I don't think Jews rule the world I don't believe in the protocols of the elders of Zion so lets let's put a stop to this silliness shall we

 

[DannyL]

Why does there always have to be something behind everything? Some things are as they appear. Trump is a sociopathic narcissistic, you don't have look much deeper than that.

 

[luka]

There doesn't have to be. But sometimes there is.

 

[DannyL]

Just to respond directly to this persistent innuendo I don't think it's Jews. I am categorically stating for the record that I don't think Jews rule the world I don't believe in the protocols of the elders of Zion so lets let's put a stop to this silliness shall we

I wasn't intending to imply to that. I'm just trying to get you to ground this in something real. If these people exist, if it isn't just rudderless chaos at work, who are they? What are their names?

 

[luka]

the tea party stuff for instance, on the surface is people who don't like being stepped on but it turns out had big money backing. Was engineered to some degree.

 

[john eden]

Why does there always have to be something behind everything? Some things are as they appear. Trump is a sociopathic narcissistic, you don't have look much deeper than that.

I agree with this and think the conspiracy stuff has spoiled Luke’s otherwise quite sound analysis. But he adds this stuff in like herbs and spices because he thinks the world is boring otherwise.

 

[version]

The literal read is that these actors are employed to play the part of protestors by interested parties (who? why?) which is a not unreasonable assumption.

But it's also about how the political theatre offers fairly niche economic/exposure opportunities for a range of bottom feeders, albeit fairly short term ones eg Baked Alaska, if you can stand out from the crowd and become the hero of the week. Based Stick Man.

And it's also about how the camera homes in on those trained in presenting themselves to the camera and thus further fictionalises our mediated view of the world.

“... there was a shadow of a transaction between the demonstrators and the state. The protest was a form of systematic hygiene … "

 

[john eden]

Like I said upthread there is a whole alt media feeding these people. It’s hopefully not too compirstorial to point out that Fox and Rebel Media are funded by right wing bazillionaires who like toying with the world.

 

[DannyL]

It is bad that they died, but come on.

Was thinking about it a lot last night, as you do at these historical moments, did manage to genuinely depress myself and it's not just the deaths. It's the emergence of this kind of hugely popular delusional thinking. Can't see how it's going to end well, or indeed ever end. Qanon, Covid denialism etc et.

 

[wild greens]

Watching CNN and it genuinely says "Up Next: Deadly Insurrection" before going to break for the adverts.

 

[DannyL]

Like I said upthread there is a whole alt media feeding these people. It’s hopefully not too compirstorial to point out that Fox and Rebel Media are funded by right wing bazillionaires who like toying with the world.

Of course not. But that's reasonably well documented, easy to point out.
What Luke's said in this thread, is that this was a deliberate set up by counter-Trump forces which impies to me Biden, the Dems etc.
What I'm interested in, does he think this is literally true? Or is it just a "fun idea". If the former, then who?

 

[DannyL]

Was thinking about it a lot last night, as you do at these historical moments, did manage to genuinely depress myself and it's not just the deaths. It's the emergence of this kind of hugely popular delusional thinking. Can't see how it's going to end well, or indeed ever end. Qanon, Covid denialism etc et.

Why I'm challenging Luke on this is because his thinking here shares some elements with the above. It's a grand game of 5-D chess, not just a fucking insane mess.

 

[luka]

Bear with I'm on the Phone

 

[DannyL]

Sure.

 

[wild greens]

There are no doubt provocateurs or infiltrators in any of the "organisations" that might have attended but I think the clear idea CNN is pushing Facebook has radicalised mad q anon middle agers into a lot of this, which is such a good story that its a shame to assume its staged.

The proud boys etc will definitely have infiltration from intelligence tho look a the history of the place

 

[john eden]

Yeah there will be infiltration but that doesn’t always mean agent provocateurs. Spies can decelerate stuff too. Or just watch.

 

[wild greens]

Very true

radicalised "extremist" police letting protestors through is a mad one but not necessarily without precedent. The big difference now is someone lashed it on tiktok

 

[version]

I think learning about stuff like Northwoods is like opening Pandora's box. It's hard not to instinctively look for someone pulling the strings once you're aware of things like that, COINTELPRO etc.

 

[DannyL]

I think learning about stuff like Northwoods is like opening Pandora's box. It's hard not to instinctively look for someone pulling the strings once you're aware of things like that, COINTELPRO etc.

Yeah, I guess I have a counter-reflex after looking at lots of OSINT material. That's made me interested in the verifiable.

Plus a lot of anti-imperialist critique is rooted in the history of the CIA coups etc and it's intellectually a very poor tool that's consistently led to the Western left dismissing revolutions in other parts of the world etc. Might have had a bit more traction 30 years ago but all the "The Arab Spring was dreamt up in Washington" thinking is not only insanely wrong, but racist to boot.