Going it alone

[IdleRich]

I would agree that Madonna is a bit like Bowie but within a narrower spectrum and with far fewer good tunes. But that's how everything works, you get a pale imitation (of Bowie's imitation) and then a bit later you get Gaga as a paler yet imitation of Madonna.
I think that point stands regardless of what you think of Bowie.
Like this bit too

I recognize his genius at being a pop star - chameleonic self-reinvention, image management, self-mythologization, etc

I agree with Luka up to a point. We've done "he's good no he's not" - maybe there is something to be taken from the bits that we can all agree on.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

The difference is that Vogue is a better song

well I can't agree with you there but as always the tunes themselves are where it's fine to disagree

 

[sus]

I break it down like this

Space oddity - meh
Man who sold the world - not bad
Ziggy - Godlike genius
Aladdin Sane - godlike genius
Diamond dogs - godlike genius
Young Americans - meh, couple of good tunes
Station to station - godlike genius
Low - The best of them all
Heroes - godlike genius
Lodger - meh
Scary monsters - mostly great
Lets dance - 1st side godlike, 2nd side meh
Everything that came after - not worth bothering with

That said I'm perfectly fine with dissensus being anti bowie. In fact i think it probably should be.

As you were...

don't forget hunky, which is pretty damn good

 

[Leo]

a relative nobody in the housemartins goes on to global DJ stardom as Fatboy Slim. I'm not a fan of either, but it was a pretty huge leap.

 

[sus]

I agree with Luka up to a point. We've done "he's good no he's not" - maybe there is something to be taken from the bits that we can all agree on.

Luka is an artist at the troll that appears initially helpful/productive but is in fact its opposite

It took me a couple months but I can spot it on-sight now

It's the opposite of the court jester maneuver, which is to say, it's a good thing he wasn't around for court jester times or he'd be executed fast

 

[sus]

That said, on the productivity note I would be genuinely curious to do a listening thread for a Berlin album or something, and get to hear what Padraig or Boxedjoy thinks was more interesting at the time, do the side-by-side listening of influences

 

[IdleRich]

Luka is an artist at the troll that appears initially helpful/productive but is in fact its opposite

But sometimes the sun shines on a dog's arse.

 

[IdleRich]

I mean sometimes he makes a good point if that wasn't clear.

 

[sus]

the idea isn't that they're "competitive"

it's that when you hear actual Philly soul you're like why would I ever listen to this pale, limpid take on it

some people may prefer the pale, limpid take

I still think the point about integration and elaboration is key; I've listened to a lot of Philly soul, and while I recognize the freshness of the sound, it's always one-dimensional. I'll take the integrated package anyday

 

[luka]

it's not trolling. it's a fairly obvious point. there's not a huge amount to be gained from the opposition once the positions are staked out.
hes really good.
no hes not.

where do you go after that?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I think that point stands regardless of what you think of Bowie

I mean it's the same as Madonna

Bowie is a (basically, I know he dabbled) straight white dude who used queerness and then black music to build an image of himself as a singular chameleonic pop avatar

whether his tunes are good or not is a different matter. that's just personal taste.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

what Padraig or Boxedjoy thinks was more interesting at the time

circa 1977 (i.e. Heroes)?

roughly a million records

 

[boxedjoy]

what about that really talented girl from Destiny's Child, Kelly Rowland

 

[sus]

Come now

 

[sus]

it's not trolling. it's a fairly obvious point. there's not a huge amount to be gained from the opposition once the positions are staked out.
hes really good.
no hes not.

where do you go after that?

don't backpedal now, you already said one of the positions was objectively right—no use feigning detachment!

 

[IdleRich]

I mean it's the same as Madonna

Bowie is a (basically, I know he dabbled) straight white dude who used queerness and then black music to build an image of himself as a singular chameleonic pop avatar

whether his tunes are good or not is a different matter. that's just personal taste.

Yeah I think that's what I'm saying. We can agree on the structure of what happened, what he did, how the tunes came to be - but there is limited value in banging heads on whether or not the tunes are good.

 

[boxedjoy]

circa 1977 (i.e. Heroes)?

roughly a million records

I was born in 1988 and tbh I've yet to be convinced there are more than a dozen records from before then worth diving into, what would you recommend to me?

 

[sus]

he's definitely not straight for the record

 

[IdleRich]

a relative nobody in the housemartins goes on to global DJ stardom as Fatboy Slim. I'm not a fan of either, but it was a pretty huge leap.

Did you see Paul Heaton in the news cos he gave loads of money to Q magazine staff who've been laid off?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

integration and elaboration is key

you keep going on about rockism but that's totally rockism

Philly soul (or whatever) is always integrating and elaborating something

disco didn't spring fully formed from the forehead of Tom Moulton, momentous tho his (and Walter Gibbons' etc) contributions were