catalog

Well-known member
I think third and probably a few others on here would really like demons by dostoyevsky. It's anti anarchist but pro doing the right thing, but of course he never really explains what that is properly, apart from generally being nationalistic, as far as I can tell anyway!

There's a character in there, kirilov, who was an anarchist and then decides that the only right thing to do is shoot himself!

Shatov is the really good character tho, totally demolishes any idea of socialism because it's essentially science and reason not God and therefore not awe inspiring. Long speech from him that's good, I was gonna copy it out but it's very long
 
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RWY

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There's a character in there, kirilov, who was an anarchist and then decides that the only right thing to do is shoot himself!
“You've finally understood! Kirillov cried out rapturously. So it can be understood, if even someone like you understands! You understand now that the whole salvation for everyone is to prove this thought to them all. Who will prove it? I! I don't understand how, up to now, an atheist could know there is no God and not kill himself at once. To recognize that there is no God, and not to recognize at the same time that you have become God, is an absurdity, otherwise you must necessarily kill yourself. Once you recognize it, you are king, and you will not kill yourself but live in the chiefest glory. But one, the one who is first, must necessarily kill himself, otherwise who will begin and prove it? It is I who will necessarily kill myself in order to begin and prove it. I am still God against my will, and I am unhappy, because it is my duty to proclaim self-will. Everyone is unhappy, because everyone is afraid to proclaim self-will. That is why man has been so unhappy and poor up to now, because he was afraid to proclaim the chief point of self-will and was self-willed only on the margins, like a schoolboy. I am terribly unhappy, because I am terrible afraid. Fear is man's curse... But I will proclaim self-will, it is my duty to believe that I do not believe. I will begin, and end, and open the door. And save. Only this one thing will save all men and in the next generation transform them physically. For in the present physical aspect, so far as I have thought, it is in no way possible for man to be without the former God. For three years I have been searching for the attribute of my divinity, and I have found it: the attribute of my divinity is - Self-will! That is all, by which I can show in the main point my insubordination and my new fearsome freedom. For it is very fearsome. I kill myself to show my insubordination and my new fearsome freedom.”
Shatov is the really good character tho, totally demolishes any idea of socialism because it's essentially science and reason not God and therefore not awe inspiring.
“Science and reason have, from the beginning of time, played a secondary and subordinate part in the life of nations; so it will be till the end of time. Nations are built up and moved by another force which sways and dominates them, the origin of which is unknown and inexplicable: that force is the force of an insatiable desire to go on to the end, though at the same time it denies that end. It is the force of the persistent assertion of one's own existence, and a denial of death. It's the spirit of life, as the Scriptures call it, 'the river of living water,' the drying up of which is threatened in the Apocalypse. It's the æsthetic principle, as the philosophers call it, the ethical principle with which they identify it, 'the seeking for God,' as I call it more simply. The object of every national movement, in every people and at every period of its existence is only the seeking for its god, who must be its own god, and the faith in Him as the only true one. God is the synthetic personality of the whole people, taken from its beginning to its end. It has never happened that all, or even many, peoples have had one common god, but each has always had its own. It's a sign of the decay of nations when they begin to have gods in common. When gods begin to be common to several nations the gods are dying and the faith in them, together with the nations themselves. The stronger a people the more individual their God. There never has been a nation without a religion, that is, without an idea of good and evil. Every people has its own conception of good and evil, and its own good and evil. When the same conceptions of good and evil become prevalent in several nations, then these nations are dying, and then the very distinction between good and evil is beginning to disappear. Reason has never had the power to define good and evil, or even to distinguish between good and evil, even approximately; on the contrary, it has always mixed them up in a disgraceful and pitiful way; science has even given the solution by the fist. This is particularly characteristic of the half-truths of science, the most terrible scourge of humanity, unknown till this century, and worse than plague, famine, or war. A half-truth is a despot... such as has never been in the world before. A despot that has its priests and its slaves, a despot to whom all do homage with love and superstition hitherto inconceivable, before which science itself trembles and cringes in a shameful way.”
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Rich we don’t talk too much but I would like to start our friendship here now please. We can talk every day by dissensus DM and next month I’ll fly to Portugal and move in.
Sure man... there's a spare room but it has no windows.
 

version

Well-known member
He didn’t realise it yet but as i said to Stan last week before he ejected, he’s a tantric Marxist

That was before reading this bit in @xenogoth mark fisher book where he talks about lyotards libidinal economy
Yeah, this sounds similar to what I'm trying to say but more French. I wouldn't go as far as to claim people enjoyed having their bodies broken working in the mines though. I'm thinking more of people enjoying and making a living discussing how awful capitalism is etc online, in universities and so on.
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I think third and probably a few others on here would really like demons by dostoyevsky. It's anti anarchist but pro doing the right thing, but of course he never really explains what that is properly, apart from generally being nationalistic, as far as I can tell anyway!

There's a character in there, kirilov, who was an anarchist and then decides that the only right thing to do is shoot himself!

Shatov is the really good character tho, totally demolishes any idea of socialism because it's essentially science and reason not God and therefore not awe inspiring. Long speech from him that's good, I was gonna copy it out but it's very long

God transforms himself into science and reason through Anselm of Canterbury's ontological argument though. My boy. It is defeat for which all theists must prepare for. God is self-negating.

Like yes, the existence of God can be proved logically. But that will get you nowhere. Anything else will just be external skin graft.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
explain it for fuck sake!

Out of date when it was published

Like Pius XII, we too (in contrast to the existentialist bourgeois – these hunters after ever new showers on the epidermis[1] of their nascent corpses) see in love a means of producing people. However, as we are not guided by mystical or ethical notions, we can see that, like the child is playing in order to one day be able to follow the predator in the forest or the… trolleybus in the thicket of cities and a motor is “retracted” by millions of revolutions before it releases useful energy on the road, sexuality also has a much broader field of activity than at the moment of the useful meeting of two germ cells.
The institutions corresponding to the generational sequence precede those of the production of factory products, but always “the social institutions, under which the people of a particular historical epoch and a particular country live, are determined by both kinds of production: by the stage of development of labour on the one hand and of the family on the other”.
At the level of savagery and barbarism, the human species thrives on the products of nature without too much labour effort. At this stage, the kinship and family systems predominate as determining elements – at a later stage of “civilisation”, in which the number of people and the share of human labour in the production of the means of subsistence has increased, production systems have priority. Familial and certain social forms are transitory and disappear when their own inertial force has exhausted itself. Morgan[2] (whose researches Engels used on the basis of Marx’s notes about Morgan’s “Ancient Society” of 1877) found traces of vanished family forms in the “kinship systems” of all peoples and although he did not start from a declaredly materialistic system, Morgan noted that while the reality of life of sexes and reproduction (family) develops, the old kinship systems with their social and legal consequences survive: These systems, he says, are “passive”.
“And,” adds Marx, “the same is true of the political, juridical, religious, and philosophical systems in general.”
And it is precisely since we have known the transience and passivity of all these systems that we have been able to leave behind the bourgeois and reactionary philosophy of Voltaire in his “Candide”[3]. The bourgeoisie, as it was born and will die venally, could not but be born and die sceptical. For it, the following philistine dialogue is definitive:
“Do you think,” said Candide, “that mankind always massacred one another? Were they always guilty of lies, fraud, treachery, ingratitude, inconstancy, envy, ambition, and cruelty? Were they always thieves, fools, cowards, backbiters, gluttons, drunkards, misers, vilifiers, debauchees, fanatics, and hypocrites?”
“Do you believe,” said Martin, “that hawks have always been accustomed to eat pigeons when they came in their way?”
“Doubtless,” said Candide. “Well then,” replied Martin, “if hawks have always had the same nature, why should you suppose that mankind have changed theirs?”
Candide lays down his arms, muttering that the “free will” makes “a great deal of difference”… We do not believe in free will, like Candide, but know with Engels who set “in motion the lowest instincts and passions in man” unknown to the barbarian age: “civilisation”; and the most advanced one is that which you, Monsieur Arouet de Voltaire, proclaimed.

 
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