Corruption, 'Deep Politics', etc.

[version]

Getting back to what the thread's actually for... I dunno whether he can be arsed and it's putting him on the spot a bit, but I'm curious what @thirdform has to say about the Turkish deep state. That was the first use of the term I ever encountered.

 

[luka]

third has talked about that loads before, just look it up

 

[luka]

I am allergic to these kind of conspiracy theories because it is myth-making for defined ends. The ends are dangerous. It is all ultimately linked to sectarian, exclusionary, apocalyptic or Utopian thinking, and the end point is mass murder.

This has nothing to do with you Luke, because for you it is a strategy of the imagination, but irrationalism, nationalism and apocalyptic thinking is on the rise again, this kind of stuff is entering mainstream perceptions, and feeding off and creating a lot of fears and desires. To me, it's not good.

i totally understand this and share some of your fears but at the same time i dont think we can turn the clock back and pretend it is the 90s. we have to look at where we are, look at what people beleive and why they beleive it, and look at how much of it is in fact grounded on a real apprehension of the facts

 

[version]

third has talked about that loads before, just look it up

He has a bit, but not that much.

 

[version]

Foolish anglos. This is not a new development in Turkey. It is called operation gladio and the deep state, not American pundits weird version.

1950s mate. Hiram Abas and them lot.

No, I'm just saying that the US helped in developing the TR deep state long before those networks were consolidated at home. Mafia, heroin, prostitution, beauty queens, belly dancers, old kurdish nobles, left wing defectors, right wing paramilitary leaders shot by their own bosses when their time was up, it's all there, and then some, for those curious...

 

[luka]

so much of what is now presented as mad rightwing conspiracy theory eg fake news is rooted in long standing left/marxist frameworks

 

[luka]

this stuff was literally taught at school. from a left standpoint.

 

[craner]

i totally understand this and share some of your fears but at the same time i dont think we can turn the clock back and pretend it is the 90s. we have to look at where we are, look at what people beleive and why they beleive it, and look at how much of it is in fact grounded on a real apprehension of the facts

That's totally reasonable, I don't disagree with that at all, but that's not where we were this morning. This morning facts were irrelevant, only the grand narrative was the truth.

 

[luka]

the entire hermenuitcs of suspicion as version says, was taught at secondary schools. and now it is free in the world and running wild.

 

[luka]

That's totally reasonable, I don't disagree with that at all, but that's not where we were this morning. This morning facts were irrelevant, only the grand narrative was the truth.

quote the relevant bits for me. thats not how i remember it

 

[DannyL]

I am allergic to these kind of conspiracy theories because it is myth-making for defined ends. The ends are dangerous. It is all ultimately linked to sectarian, exclusionary, apocalyptic or Utopian thinking, and the end point is mass murder.

This has nothing to do with you Luke, because for you it is a strategy of the imagination, but irrationalism, nationalism and apocalyptic thinking is on the rise again, this kind of stuff is affecting mainstream perceptions, and feeding off and creating a lot of fears and desires. To me, it's not good.

That's probably the most succinct expression of the valid objections to conspiracism I've heard.
Though I'd add it's not just an imaginative strategy for Luke - he likes the real world effects, because *shit gets fucked up*. He delights in it and has said as much on here several times. This whole conversation is disingenuous because of that.

 

[luka]

danny we all know you are not bright enough to have an opinion on grown up matters.

 

[version]

so much of what is now presented as mad rightwing conspiracy theory eg fake news is rooted in long standing left/marxist frameworks

That's one of the dangers of coming up with tools, I suppose. If they're useful then other people will pick them up, people who might use them for things you don't like, e.g. Nick Land taking Deleuze etc and ending up where he did.

 

[craner]

quote the relevant bits for me. thats not how i remember it

detail is detail. its the trees that obscure the wood.

 

[DannyL]

That was why Padraig said "you're like a little boy who likes pulling the wings on flies" which of course was met with the usual 15 pages of handwaving denial.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Caught with his flies undone

 

[DannyL]

danny we all know you are not bright enough to have an opinion on grown up matters.

And we all know you to take recourse to abuse when you don't have an argument, twice in this thread now.

 

[luka]

That was why Padraig said "you're like a little boy who likes pulling the wings on flies" which of course was met with the usual 15 pages of handwaving denial.

he also was too thick to talk to. its a waste of time. i wont talk to a thick dozy cunt. i dont mind talking to craner, or even version

 

[luka]

yes i said that about detail. and i said about nuance that it is the absence of clarity of thought.

 

[luka]

if you zoom in past a certain point you cant see the pattern any more