thirdform

pass the sick bucket
pretty hysterical this biscetti from your lot isn't it?

where is all the talk of maturation? no just declare a parent a child abuser, then moan that parents are too libcucked. pathetic.

After 15 months in court, on October 22, the jury awarded Luna’s mother, Anne Georgulas, full conservatorship of her daughter. It was a decision that brought relief to the trans community and outraged conservatives who believe supporting a trans child’s gender identity is tantamount to child abuse.
People were so riled up online, some sent threats to Georgulas; she was “viciously attacked and threatened by complete strangers,” her attorneys told the Daily Caller. Several prominent Texas officials even added to the fray, including Republican Gov. Greg Abbott, who promised to order the state’s child protective services to investigate Georgulas. State Rep. Steve Toth said he would propose a bill to “add ‘Transitioning of a Minor’ as Child Abuse.”

Two days after the debate boiled over online, Judge Kim Cooks decided to vacate the jury decision. Instead, she granted the parents “joint managing conservatorship,” which is the equivalent of joint custody in Texas. (Cooks has maintained that she did not make her decision based on any government official’s opinion; she has not responded to Vox’s request for comment.) While Georgulas, a pediatrician, had requested that the court order Luna’s father, Jeffrey Younger, to respect their daughter’s gender identity, Cooks said that “the Court finds that the State of Texas has no compelling interest to justify such interference.”
The ruling has brought more questions than answers: When one parent honors her child’s gender identity and the other does not, what does that mean for the child? More specifically, what will it mean for her socialization, her mental well-being, and who she’s allowed to be?

This is ultimately your position, to leave kids in abusive parental limbo. So no need for the outrage, things will keep ticking along for you.

He also launched a social media campaign to “save” his child from the supposed harm of transitioning. For a child of Luna’s age, this is solely social and consists of keeping her hair long, choosing her own clothing, and using a feminine name and pronouns.

The courts don't even talk about chopping off penises. and puberty blockers aren't irreversable.

aaah and the gift which keeps giving

In court testimony, Georgulas said that she would prefer if Luna were not transgender, but she supports her child’s gender identity regardless of her own feelings. “From my knowledge as a pediatrician and also from the research I’ve done, it is better to affirm for the psychological well-being of the child … [doctors recommended] that we affirm the child’s choices, whatever those choices are,” she said.
Meanwhile, Younger made the conservative media circuit rounds, insisting it was Georgulas who was forcing Luna to present as a girl. Luna “presents as a boy with me and [she] presents as a girl with his mom,” Younger told LifeSiteNews, a conservative Christian website, in September. “[She] gets dressed as a boy at [her] mother’s home and [she] comes out to me as a boy. That means that [she’s] comfortable as a boy at [her] mother’s home.” Georgulas and others who have testified have disputed this latter part, saying it was Younger forcing Luna to present as a boy.
Maternal blame appears to be common when it comes to trans children of estranged couples. While data on the number of trans children involved in custody disputes doesn’t yet exist, a Family Court Review study released earlier this year examined the cases of 10 divorced mothers who affirm their child’s trans- and gender non-conforming identities. In each of the 10 cases, the child’s father blamed the affirming mother for “causing” the child to be trans, and courts gave a favorable ruling to the father in four of those cases. However, “parents probably have little or no influence on the child’s core feelings that define him or her as gender typical or gender variant,” the study said.

oooh boy: what do we have here?

According to court documents of the annulment of his and Georgulas’s marriage, the court found that Younger lied about multiple aspects of his life: his career, his previous marriages, his income, his education, and even his military service. It was enough for a Texas court to annul their six-year marriage because it was entered into under fraudulent terms.

Judge Cooks also called out Younger for profiting off a violation of his family’s privacy. “The father finds comfort in public controversy and attention surrounded by his use of unfounded facts and is thus motivated by financial gain of approximately $139,000 which he has received at the cost of the protection and privacy of his children,” she wrote in her judgment, referring to a crowdfunding and merchandising scheme launched last year by Younger.

“The father doesn’t follow the recommendations of the counselor or the pediatrician, and he shames her to try to make her feel bad for wanting to dress as a girl,” Meaders, Georgulas’s attorney, told the court. “Even though the father knows she wants super-long hair, he shaves her head when he has the opportunity and leaves the other twin boy’s hair long,” referring to her twin brother Jude.
It is the hair-shaving detail that stands out as especially cruel to trans people and advocates. “Luna’s father has been very insistent on cutting her hair extremely short, and that is like one of my daughter’s biggest dysphoric points,” Jane, a Dallas-area mother of a trans kid who knows Luna (and whose name has been changed for this story) told Vox. “For her, all of this is about the fact that Luna is being forced to have short hair. She doesn’t understand all the other ramifications.”
Luna’s hair figures so prominently in this case because at age 7, hair is often the only differentiating physical indicator of a child’s gender. Clothed, boys’ and girls’ bodies at that age are essentially the same, having not yet undergone any effects from puberty. A trans child at age 7 does not make permanent changes to their body, despite what Younger claims Georgulas wants to do.
Ultimately, the dispute at this current stage — and several years into the future — is over Luna’s social transition: how she wears her hair, what clothes she wears, her name, and pronouns.
“There is no medical intervention of any sort prior to someone hitting puberty,” Dr. Joshua Safer, executive director at the Center for Transgender Medicine and Surgery at Mount Sinai and president of the United States Professional Association for Transgender Health, told Vox. “So small children do not get medicines and small children do not get surgeries, for sure.
“The standard approach when kids are gender expansive — when they say they’re transgender, when they think they’re transgender, whatever that might happen, to get a clue that this might be going on — is pretty much to listen to the kid and to kind of follow their guidance in terms of what they want to do, what the child wants to do,” he added.
Safer says it’s important to develop an individualized plan for mental and physical health for gender dysphoric kids and adolescents. Varying degrees of family support for transition means coexisting mental health issues are important to examine for any trans child; there’s no one-size-fits-all solution for all kids. Most of all, the child must feel comfortable with the plan.
Genecis, the Children’s Health clinic where Georgulas wanted to Luna to receive care, makes it clear on its website that it does not perform gender-related surgeries. In providing comprehensive, age-appropriate mental health and hormonal care for trans youth and adolescents, it follows established guidelines from major medical associations in its treatment. The jury’s decision, before it was overruled by the judge, would have allowed her to Luna to receive care at the clinic without Younger’s approval. Now she won’t be able to.
According to court transcripts, Younger had missed several appointments with medical professionals who have worked with Luna, claiming to want opinions from other providers. However, at the time, he hadn’t followed through on those requests.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
At issue is the fact that when the Dutch and Canadian studies were conducted, the official diagnosis for gender-variant kids was “gender identity disorder.” In order to be diagnosed with GID, a child merely had to display cross-gender dress or behavior, regardless of whether they declared themselves to actually be a member of the opposite sex. The effect of this diagnosis is that cisgender gay and lesbian children, who also frequently display cross-gender preferences without declaring themselves to be the opposite gender before puberty, were caught up in the clinicians’ studies and so of course they would “desist” later on.
Even Thomas Steensma, a researcher and clinician at the Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria in Amsterdam and a proponent for watchful waiting, has noted the earlier samples may have included “milder cases” that are “hard to compare with the clinical samples we see now in our clinics,” in an interview with KQED last year. But he still urged caution with social transitioning of prepubescent children. “With certain steps like a name change or a pronoun change, with a result that maybe others will only perceive you as a girl — that’s somewhere where we say, ‘Okay, maybe you should explore things without taking steps that are hard to reverse.’” (Steensma hasn’t returned Vox’s request for comment.)

In 2012, gender identity disorder was changed to the less stigmatizing term “gender dysphoria,” distress resulting from a mismatch between the child’s natal gender and their internal sense of their gender identity. Nowadays, in order to qualify for a gender dysphoria diagnosis, the child must be persistent, insistent, and consistent in their gender identity over a long period of time, criteria that didn’t exist under the older diagnosis.
Similarly, watchful waiting as a concept has been pushed to the fringes in American medicine as of late, as it is seen as needlessly punitive to the child. Instead, what’s more commonly recommended is the affirming method, which allows gender-expansive children to more freely experiment with their gender expression, trying on new names or pronouns as needed. It’s an individualized approach without permanent outcomes. Rather than attempting to fix a prepubescent child’s perceived gender-related “disorder,” the affirming approach, which recommends social transitioning if the child wants it, seeks to lessen the actual dysphoria experienced by the child without medical treatment.

So there you have it.


The affirming model has been recommended by nearly every major American medical association, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, the Endocrine Society, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and many others.

Guess it's all the big bad fault of the joose and the wokes.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
The plaintiff in the latest case is a transgender woman who has not undergone surgery to remove her testicles due to the high cost of the operation and concerns about after-effects.
She is arguing that the legal requirement for forced sterilization violates Article 13 of the Constitution, which guarantees respect for the individual and the right to the pursuit of happiness, as well as Article 14, which guarantees equality under the law.
Lawyers for the plaintiff said that synchronizing one’s gender identity with the gender on the family register is an important fundamental right, and that requiring the heavy burden of surgery to do so is unconstitutional.
This will apparently be the first time for the top court to hold public hearings in a family law case.
The World Health Organization in 2014 issued a statement calling for the abolition of required sterilization, saying it violates human rights. A number of nations no longer require such a procedure to legally change one’s gender.
PASSING THE BATON
“I look forward to the Supreme Court issuing a response that matches the current times,” said Takakito Usui, 49, the plaintiff in the case four years ago.
A transgender man, Usui was diagnosed with GID in 2013 and legally changed his name on the family register. But he did not go ahead with the surgical procedure.
He felt the heart of the issue was how he wanted to live rather than whether or not he underwent surgery.
In addition to the health risk from the operation, the surgery would not give him male reproductive functions.
In 2016, he sought to change his gender on the family register without the operation.
But the Supreme Court said such an action could cause confusion in society and ruled that “at the present time” the law requiring forced sterilization was constitutional.
Two of the four justices involved in the ruling issued supporting opinions that said the possibility of the law being unconstitutional had emerged.
Usui feels his views had reached the justices.
At a news conference after the 2019 ruling, he said: “I have done all I can. I want to pass on the baton to the next individual.”
Usui now lives with his female partner and her son, and is involved in farming in Shinjo, Okayama Prefecture.
But they face various inconveniences because they are not recognized as a legal family, such as being unable to accept an Individual Number Card on behalf of the applicant.
After the ruling, Usui heard from other transgender people who said his action had provided support to them.
Now that another individual has submitted a similar request to the Supreme Court, Usui said: “We have to continue to submit cards without fear. Such persistent action will one day lead to the wall crumbling down.”

“I realized how high the hurdle was,” Kimoto said. “To clear all conditions meant undergoing surgery.”
He had to give up on his dream of working in the movie industry. He held part-time jobs in restaurants, convenience stores and the moving industry to accumulate the 2 million yen ($13,900) needed for the surgery.
It took him two years.
Kimoto had plastic surgery in Japan to flatten his breasts but went to Thailand to have his uterus and ovaries removed.
Although some medical institutions in Japan can handle such procedures, there was a long waiting list.
“I do not regret the surgery,” Kimoto said. “But because I had no other options, my start to life was delayed. Things would have turned out differently if I was able to change my gender without the surgery.”

 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
@thirdform I don't have a 'lot'

"is pretty much to listen to the kid and to kind of follow their guidance in terms of what they want to do, what the child wants to do" - I've already problematised the claim that the products of the mind are necessarily 'authentic'...and others' comments on childhood phases put into question their potential longevity anyway.

The academics in the article are deriving some ineffable essential quality from self-report but you can't trust self-report.

You can spam these stories as much as you like but I've already addressed the points that you're implicitly making so you need to concentrate on dealing with that.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
What progressives can't see that the right have a gestalt appreciation of what progressives do and merely regard [latest initiative] as being another step in the reckless picking apart of the threads of society. Progressives have already done for religion, modesty, prudery, self-control, family, and now they are coming for science and biology. The last bulwarks of societal consistency and the reality principle.

Don't worry, the progressives need no aim, they will dig their own grave, and then we will have maximum authoritarian communism and you can be exiled to live on an island where you are free to starve to death in your city state, as your vaunted democratic capitalism already necessitates.

PS, by your typology, Margaret Thatcher is the absolute most bestest progressive ever, as she denies the existence of society. This oxford education not done much good for you.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
@thirdform I don't have a 'lot'

"is pretty much to listen to the kid and to kind of follow their guidance in terms of what they want to do, what the child wants to do" - I've already problematised the claim that the products of the mind are necessarily 'authentic'...and others' comments on childhood phases put into question their potential longevity anyway.

The academics in the article are deriving some ineffable essential quality from self-report but you can't trust self-report.

You can spam these stories as much as you like but I've already addressed the points that you're implicitly making so you need to concentrate on dealing with that.

so you're not a monist?

Well, that's a shame, because literally 1% of the western educated population are dualists.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
you might not be able to trust self-report, but the idea that by virtue of being an adult parental reports should be trusted is idealist nonsense.

You would have to then say there is some kind of sense perception that the childs mind is incapable of achieving, and that sense perception (not sense perception as mental representation) is the primary determinant. Science denies the search for absolute theological truth existing at the border of perception. If you want to talk about the unknowability of the thing, then you would have to apply that to every facet of existence, and deny the real existence of the world external to us.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
@thirdform I don't have a 'lot'

"is pretty much to listen to the kid and to kind of follow their guidance in terms of what they want to do, what the child wants to do" - I've already problematised the claim that the products of the mind are necessarily 'authentic'...and others' comments on childhood phases put into question their potential longevity anyway.

The academics in the article are deriving some ineffable essential quality from self-report but you can't trust self-report.

You can spam these stories as much as you like but I've already addressed the points that you're implicitly making so you need to concentrate on dealing with that.

Also Who is talking about authenticity here? Why have you regressed to schematism? Why are you defining the world according to a typology you've already defined before hand?
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
you might not be able to trust self-report, but the idea that by virtue of being an adult parental reports should be trusted is idealist nonsense.

You would have to then say there is some kind of sense perception that the childs mind is incapable of achieving, and that sense perception (not sense perception as mental representation) is the primary determinant. Science denies the search for absolute theological truth existing at the border of perception. If you want to talk about the unknowability of the thing, then you would have to apply that to every facet of existence, and deny the real existence of the world external to us.
One can't trust self-report because it's classified as a mental disorder. Even if one doesn't emphasise the mental part of the disorder, that there is pain and incoherence would be enough to call into question what the mind is thinking anyway (because the mind is the body etc.).
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Also Who is talking about authenticity here? Why have you regressed to schematism? Why are you defining the world according to a typology you've already defined before hand?
The article refers to authenticity and, sure, there are things to which only the child has access e.g. memories of past life but, whereas past life recollections can be verified to some extent, there is no verification or falsification possible in this instance.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
...unless one accepts it is the child's soul which misses recently being of the other sex and goes about verifying this through past life recollection and cross referencing...but the guys who seem to have done a lot of that, Dr Ian Stevenson and Dr Jim Tucker, would not classify the soul as being essentially other-sexed and have observed that this identification dissipates over time if not constantly stirred up.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
One can't trust self-report because it's classified as a mental disorder. Even if one doesn't emphasise the mental part of the disorder, that there is pain and incoherence would be enough to call into question what the mind is thinking anyway (because the mind is the body etc.).

But why are pain and incoherence equated with disorder?

Is dysphoria a disorder? I thought the whole reason for coigning the term gender dysphoria was not to pathologise it.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
The article refers to authenticity and, sure, there are things to which only the child has access e.g. memories of past life but, whereas past life recollections can be verified to some extent, there is no verification or falsification possible in this instance.

How is there no verification and falsification possible? Matter is motion, matter is not set into motion, if a persons gender dysphoria is consistent over a long stretch of time, then surely this can be verified.

If anything, it's the person who denies the existence of transgender who makes a claim which is unfalsifiable, as it is based on a denial of matter in motion. Recall that the theologians spent an awfully lot of time, spilt lots of inc, in defining the sexes of the angels. Angels like the world they thought they lived in, which was immutable, hierarchically stratified and defined according to the divine essence. But society still kept moving on, did it not?

What they couldn't see, and what this anti-progressive fixation misses is that the forces for disintegration are contained within the societies themselves.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
...unless one accepts it is the child's soul which misses recently being of the other sex and goes about verifying this through past life recollection and cross referencing...but the guys who seem to have done a lot of that, Dr Ian Stevenson and Dr Jim Tucker, would not classify the soul as being essentially other-sexed and have observed that this identification dissipates over time if not constantly stirred up.

the soul is exactly unfalsifiable as well, and hence cannot be proven to exist. How can you put this in the same bracket as gender dysphoria? People aren't referring to a concept of ineffableness here, on the contrary, they are quite clearly describing their feelings and the representations of the external world they perceive.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
But why are pain and incoherence equated with disorder?

Is dysphoria a disorder? I thought the whole reason for coigning the term gender dysphoria was not to pathologise it.
Dysphoria is the opposite of euphoria, does that sound like a positive spin to you? Incoherence is literally disorder. Pain is experienced as disorder. People don't think they ultimately should be in pain. If there were no problem, there would be no conversion therapies.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
How is there no verification and falsification possible? Matter is motion, matter is not set into motion, if a persons gender dysphoria is consistent over a long stretch of time, then surely this can be verified.
Yes, the gender dysphoria diagnosis is the objective part. The self-report of being the other sex is purely subjective, which is why some are attempting to give this subjectivity unassailable objective status.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Dysphoria is the opposite of euphoria, does that sound like a positive spin to you? Incoherence is literally disorder. Pain is experienced as disorder. People don't think they ultimately should be in pain. If there were no problem, there would be no conversion therapies.
Do you not think then that maybe helping such people do the thing that they say would make them feel a lot better might help them feel a lot better?
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
the soul is exactly unfalsifiable as well, and hence cannot be proven to exist. How can you put this in the same bracket as gender dysphoria? People aren't referring to a concept of ineffableness here, on the contrary, they are quite clearly describing their feelings and the representations of the external world they perceive.
Along with expressing some feelings, they are making substantive claims but there is no evidence for these claims beyond their feelings. And that's why these claims have never been taken seriously by any society in recorded history.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
If a person complains they're dying of thirst and would like some water, please, is the humane response:

A) here, have some water, or
B) you're obviously suffering from a terrible disease, which would be made still worse if we gave in to your no doubt heartfelt and earnest, but ultimately delusional, desires for this so-called 'water'

?
 
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