This is the core of my argument here—that there's a substantial difference between support—whether theoretical or material—and claims of membership. In my conception, what matters is the support—whether someone is or is not doing beneficial work in the world.
Yes and representing femininity does count as support because it gets us closer to gender equality. I get that this is not the same thing as changing institutions, systems or material conditions. It doesn't have to be. Again, the issue is that femininity is underrepresented. Thus, representing femininity does count as theoretical support.
I have to ask—why is malelesbian unable to understand that I am differentiating membership and identity from helping people?
Probably because I specified multiple times that the feminine behaviors that constitute my identity are altruistic actions that do help people.
I bring this up specifically because "malelesbian" has continually shown a desire to produce his identity out of the social position of the feminine, and to co-opt the legitimacy of feminist movements towards his own sense of self. I think that's a little sus, if he's going to keep identifying as a straight, cisgender man!
There you go again with your gender essentialism. I am a queer, non-binary cisheterosexual man. My pronouns are he/they. My point has been that any person of any gender can benefit feminine culture. Any person can represent femininity and contribute feminism in that way at least.
The idea that I'm using "the legitimacy of feminist movements" as a means to boost my ego is a total strawman. Anti-phallic behavior is entirely opposed to boosting one's self of self, it is all about helping others. So if I'm am feminine, that is, anti-phallic, then I would never use my femininity as an ego boost.
I say that a man can support feminist ideas and projects among other men. It is strange and confounding that this is not enough for you, and that they must also be given an identity label as well.
So men can support feminist ideas only if they come from women? More essentialism. My point is that men have feminine experiences that they can represent and that they can create their own feminist theories. If men can promote feminine culture and theorize about feminism, then they can do feminism in the minimal way relevant to my view.
We feminine men need an identity label because we need a way to differentiate ourselves from trads. It's not like I'm calling myself a feminist to compliment myself.
I feel constantly in this conversation like I am engaging with the Gish Gallop. I'm forced to regularly make decisions like "should I double down on my original points until they make it through this man's thick skull, or should I point out how cartoonishly racist it is to say, unsolicited, that hip hop is dominated by a culture of misogyny."
If you don't understand the phallocentrism rampant in hip hop, you don't understand hip hop. Why do you think they hate gay men so much? Why do you think so many female rappers are hyper-sexual phallocrats? I love hip hop. I'm a part of hip hop, the culture. It's racist to ignore how much misogyny is present in hip hop. What, you think black people don't know any better?
And—I disagree. Gender segregation is everywhere it shows up a way to enforce misogyny; having good relationships with women is the opposite of this.
Maybe so, but interactions between genders also enforce misogyny. Having good relationships doesn't mean your relationships aren't based around your own self-interest. Unless by good relationships you mean altruistic ones. And you know, you have a minor point: having strictly platonic friendships with women does count as an example of feminine, non-phallic behavior. But getting in touch with your feminine side is still worth doing.
The phrase "If you were a real feminist you would know that being a feminist is just a part of who you are." is an incredible one, because it encapsulates the worldview: "feminism" is a kind of unquantifiable essence, that by claiming the identity of, will spontaneously change the world. This is the "little merit badge" I'm referring to. I am in fact interested in feminism—I just think that constructing my identity around it would be a kind of narcissistic seizure of a concept that belongs to other people.
I never claimed that feminism is essential to my identity, nor did I claim that identifying as a feminist would "spontaneously change the world" (no one would claim that). Feminism is an ongoing, lifelong process. I'm fallible. I can fail to contribute to feminism. But I aim to behave in ways beneficial to feminism. My dedication and commitment to that goal are not essential, they are efforts I attempt to repeat consistently. Achieving the goal of contributing to feminism has nothing to do with my self-image or ego. Again, you're falling into ad hominem attacks. You're attacking me as a person, not my argument.
I am not constructing my identity around feminism, I am constructing my identity around femininity. That is to say, I am feminine, I enjoy being feminine, and I will remain feminine. I have made the additional point that expressing this femininity in art and discourse can help contribute to feminism. Suppose I've failed to contribute to feminism. Ok, well, I will still promote feminine culture. You're too hung up on the label of feminist. What's more important is representing and promoting feminine culture. I am interested in the concrete practice of encouraging men to express femininity.
The fact that you think that feminism can't belong to you is a glaring example of your essentialism. There is nothing in feminism that says men can't be a part of it. You think "feminist" is an identity category, when it is really a theory and practice. I have a theory of feminism. You don't. I practice feminism by means of feminine behaviors that help others and build communities. Why is that not enough for you?
"If you are a real feminist, then feminism is part of your lifestyle and worldview." Here it is again—lifestyle, you're once again reducing feminism to a kind of consumer ready-to-wear identity, an off-the-shelf positioning that gives you the ability to gatekeep. Your self-proclaimed feminism is, in practice, a cudgel that you use to establish your own credibility.
By "lifestyle" all I meant was that you have to practice feminism in your everyday life. If I identify as a feminist, it is only because I perform actions that contribute to feminism. I identify as a feminist because I created a feminist theory for example. No one is saying you can label yourself a feminist without doing the work of feminism.
If anything gives me the ability to gatekeep, it's that I understand Butler and Irigaray and you don't. I've studied feminism and you haven't. And you say I don't support women enough! I atleast support them enough to actually read their books.
Why do I need to use feminism to establish my own credibility? That's non-sense. I studied philosophy for 10 years, I use that to establish my credibility.
And yet—with all that thunder, all that noise—the sole contribution you name, your great act in support of women, the very truth of what makes you a feminist—is to "express yourself," or in other words, to perform an identity. This is exactly what I have been accusing you of—wanting a little merit badge, and not actually engaging in any actions that improve the lives of women except in the most speculative, circuitous, and ineffective ways.
I don't understand why you think helping others doesn't improve the lives of women. I've said time and time against that the main non-phallic behavior is helping people. Expressing femininity means alleviating the suffering of others and building relationship, growing communties. When I help people, I perform a feminine identity. So you're wrong to say that performing a feminine identity doesn't help people. And it makes no sense to say that an identity is a merit badge. You're asssuming an identity is a passive state. Wrong. Behaviors define identity. So to say that I'm not doing anything helpful by identifying as feminine misses the point entirely. I only identify as feminine because I perform actions that help people. If I deserve an honorific for anything, it's for helping people, not for labeling myself a feminist. In a way, you're right, it doesn't matter who is or isn't a feminist, what matters is helping people.
