Modern d'n'b is rubbish - tune ID and a moan from an old man

[Alfons]

OK, back to the point - how it came to be so shit.

I get the impression d'n'b has become an affinity group, a mutual support network, rather than a musical movement, in the same way that people get into heavy metal, or goth, not so much for the music, but for the camaraderie. There's a big difference between that kind of "scene" and the musically evangelistic "scenius" that's driven jungle, garage, grime and dubstep. The music per se is secondary to having an identikit, cut-out-and-keep, ready-made circle of friends. In fact the music, or at least the innovation in the music, is something of a distraction from the repeated ceremonial formulae of the socialisation. Obviously, its becoming "student music" is part of it, but that's not the whole story, because it's not just appreciated by students. Rather it's become like a druggy version of Britrock: unthreatening, easily consumed and socially acceptable. While it's really fast on the surface, running at around 180 to 190bpm rather than jungle's 160-175bpm, you can bounce around to it at half speed and it's very comfortable - raving with minimum effort, with 80-85 bpm being not far off Oasis' slug-rock speed. Black rhythms (and black people) have been excised because all that funk and syncopation are too hard to bounce along to, and the black voices are just confusing. That endless deadening oompah-oompah two step beat sweeps all before it.

So it's a classic case of a product crossing over to a mainstream audience with totally different needs to its original customers, and in this case, utterly hollowing itself out in the process..

Isn't this argument more centered around the people who listen to the music than the people who make it? Although this might be a "which came first the hen or the egg" kind of thing, I'd assume that the change in the music brought about the change in the scene? How and why did these producers and dj's (Photek, J Majik, Goldie, Optical, Dillinja, Matrix, Doc Scott, Fabio... the list goes on), who made and played amazing music 10 years ago, end up making and playing the horrible stuff they do today?


oh and by the way
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF264495-01-01-01.mp3

 

[UFO over easy]

oh and by the way
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF264495-01-01-01.mp3

heheheheheheh... who made that??

 

[subvert47]

How and why did these producers and dj's (Photek, J Majik, Goldie, Optical, Dillinja, Matrix, Doc Scott, Fabio... the list goes on), who made and played amazing music 10 years ago, end up making and playing the horrible stuff they do today?

they were "taking things to the next level" :slanted:

 

[Alfons]

heheheheheheh... who made that??

Clipz, makes horrible tunes but they manage to be funny a lot of the time, check out download to (which allegedly features Fierce on vocal duties...)
http://www.juno.co.uk/artists/Clipz/

 

[baboon2004]

Isn't this argument more centered around the people who listen to the music than the people who make it? Although this might be a "which came first the hen or the egg" kind of thing, I'd assume that the change in the music brought about the change in the scene? How and why did these producers and dj's (Photek, J Majik, Goldie, Optical, Dillinja, Matrix, Doc Scott, Fabio... the list goes on), who made and played amazing music 10 years ago, end up making and playing the horrible stuff they do today?

This happened with a lot of stalwarts from a lot of scenes - eg why did Nightmares on Wax, having made 'Aftermath' and other supreme rave records, end up producing second-rate trip-hop? Maybe they simply got older and became more conservative?

The mystery seems to be as to why the younger, presumably 'fresher' producers are making largely dull d 'n b...

 

[Edward]

I posted last night something about how it's a (true) cliche that an artist's early work is often their best.
I don't think it's a mystery, it's got a lot to do with having maybe 20 years to think of ideas for your first record and then 6 months to think of some more for the second one.

To me the mystery is (edit: as you said!) how come loads of young producers arrive on scenes like drum n bass and add nothing, just churn out copycat stuff.

Why is this?

Perhaps:
=they think they can make money by making what's popular (in which case why not just make rap?)
=they have no imagination
=the fact that it's so easy to hear tons of music these days without saving up for it means that they are too exposed to what's already out there at an early age and that suppresses their own ideas, the ideas that might've flourished if they'd grown up with, say, their parents' records plus being able to afford maybe 6 albums a year during their teens...??

I think I could be onto something in the last one!

 

[baboon2004]

Also (having heard some old jungle when out at the weekend), can anyone shed any light as to why anyone thought that early dnb/jungle was too rhythmically complex to dance to, as seems to have been the case? Is the clubbing mainstream really so very conservative and unimaginative?

I fear I already know the answer to my second question

 

[viktorvaughn]

Also (having heard some old jungle when out at the weekend), can anyone shed any light as to why anyone thought that early dnb/jungle was too rhythmically complex to dance to, as seems to have been the case? Is the clubbing mainstream really so very conservative and unimaginative?

I fear I already know the answer to my second question

Dancing to remarc playing his own tunes with all the chopped drums has been one of my most pleasant clubbing experiences to date!

 

[baboon2004]

Dancing to remarc playing his own tunes with all the chopped drums has been one of my most pleasant clubbing experiences to date!

Yeah, I love dancing to jungle - 9 hours of 4/4 music this weekend (even when it was played by Villalobos and similar luminaries) made me yearn for a chopped-up breakbeat or two...

 

[bassnation]

I spent a while trying to reply to some of the posts here... but then it started to depress me so I stopped

I'm looking forward to the point where drum and bass becomes SO unpopular (with the right people, crucially), that it becomes cool to like it. Maybe then people won't enter into these discussions with such low expectations.

It's like what happened with metal recently.. when will K-Punk start investigating 'hipster dnb'?

PS: bassnation - if you're talking about Sawtooth, that was fucking incredible! one of the best drum and bass LPs ever. Treading, I Let U, S4, Piper, Tychonic Cycle are ordinary?? It was a massively inventive and varied album.. he basically predicted every single different direction drum and bass would eventually fragment into. And there certainly was a detroit influence, Bleep. There's even a tune on the LP called 'Detroit'.

no, i was talking about a much earlier album, maybe 95. i've got a copy here somewhere - meant to sell on ebay. its alright but doesn't really stand out. obviously this is well before techstep, piper etc

 

[bassnation]

Piper was a bomb tune, massive... part of that techy movement towards technoey linearity - which was exciting at the time. The b-side, Common Origin, is a stunner - deep emotive synth workout. The Sawtooth LP had some lovely bits... not far from from the Detroit influence found in Omni Trio/Deep Blues stuff.

The first 5 or so tracks on the Truesteppers album are excellent crossover tunes, really open and creative, and the production is sharp as. Lots of non-linear bits, great beats / instrumentation etc... love hearing all those jungle motifs filtered through garage in a pop context.

common origin, forgot about that - tuuuuuuneee! thats definitely more my cup of tea than piper. piper is so rigidly unfunky - and yes i am aware thats the entire point of it. however compared to the current crop its positively slinky.

 

[kidkut]

Completely agree modern MAINSTREAM dnb is rubbish.

I run a label that releases track's for the previously mentioned underground movement.

I shall post up some clips of some our releases to show you some good and innovative music (most likely Thursday as i have commitments tonight)

The scene is so far removed from dnb that I dont associate myself with it, its labeled drumfunk/choppage/edits etc, i know alot of people within it arent too fond of those names but i adopt drumfunk if anyone asks, my reason being i want to distance myself from mainstream dnb.

There are only a handful of nights that play this music, Technicality (London), Subtle Audio (Limerick, Ireland), Noir (Bristol), IchiOne (Amsterdam), there are other occassional ones.

Labels i would check (off the top of my head):

Outsider
Immerse Records
Subtle Audio
Subvert Central Recordings
Inperspective Records
Transmute Recordings
Lightless Recordings
Paradox Music
Esoteric
Exit Recordings
Quarrantine (Occasionally)
Creative Source (Occasionally)
Offshore Recordings

Artists to check:

Macc, Chris Inperspective, dgoHn, Infamy, Dsp, Andy Skopes, Madcap, Wilsh, Equinox, Senses (badman!!), Profane, Stranjah, Gremlinz, Fracture & Neptune, Dissident, Paradox, Fanu

More mainstream but still doing it for me:

D Bridge, Amit, Break

Oh and dont forget to check www.subvertcentral.com as previously mentioned.

I dont think its a surprise that after 15 years you have a split in the scene, people are making money out of it now so you have two crowds, those paying the mortgage and those trying to make music they love/innovative and by the way i dont think they are mutually exclusive, its just more risky.

/edit

Here are some tunes that are out that would recommend checking:

Senses - Darker Self - Inperspective
Macc - 4L + N - Subtle Audio
Equinox - Roys Ting - Subtle Audio
Andy Skopes - Otis Drumfunk - Immerse
Chris Inperspective - Each Twin Unique/Cloud City Boogie - INP
Equinox - From Above - (Breakin/Bassbin)
Paradox - Give the Drummer Some Rmx - Paradox Music
Macc - Gutteral - Outsider
DJ Trax & Paradox - Entity / Epoch - Outsider
Fracture & Neptune - Continuities - Breakin
Fracture & Neptune - Too Doggone Funky - INP
dgoHn - Vase - Exegene (Free to download here http://www.exegene.com/release_info.php?ReleaseID=24) Exegene is a free net based label with many interesting releases.

 

[subvert47]

Labels i would check (off the top of my head):

 

[Logos]

Also (having heard some old jungle when out at the weekend), can anyone shed any light as to why anyone thought that early dnb/jungle was too rhythmically complex to dance to, as seems to have been the case? Is the clubbing mainstream really so very conservative and unimaginative?

I fear I already know the answer to my second question

The only people who thought that were journalists who had never been to a rave.

 

[Don Rosco]

The only people who thought that were journalists who had never been to a rave.

Not true, unfortunately. When I started DJing (94ish), I was working in a record shop that sold small amounts of Jungle, and fuckin loads of progressive house. The abuse I got was unbelievable!! It was good natured, but there was clearly a load of 'clubbers' who looked at jungle and the like as completely alien - far too fast with these weird beats. 'How do you dance to that?'

Re naphta etc: isn't it all mostly revivalist though, without the prevailing wind of a cultural junglist movement behind it? Recreating the music wont recreate the magic...

I think in general you're right, but Naphta manages to get closer than anyone. He's not all amens and jungle signifiers either, far from it. I tend to play the less junglistic of his tunes, really - stuff like My Bitter Sweetness, Home and others. And wait til you hear the slower stuff too. Mercy!

i've got some of those, pity my vinyl is still at my ex-wifes house. got loads of garage like that - plus all of the horsepower eps, which back at the time no fucker had heard of outside of london.

Not true either - I picked them up in Dublin. Granted, there was nowhere to fuckin play them outside of the radio, but they were still heard!

How and why did these producers and dj's (Photek, J Majik, Goldie, Optical, Dillinja, Matrix, Doc Scott, Fabio... the list goes on), who made and played amazing music 10 years ago, end up making and playing the horrible stuff they do today?

The comprehensiveness of the wackness is still staggering to me. Pretty much everyone went so, so shit. One or two exceptions only serve to prove the rule - Paradox, Jonny L (have to disagree with you there Bassnation, he's always been consistently innovatively funky to me. His new Mr L label has 3 or 4 dynamite releases)

I can't really add much more to this thread, it's all been said before me. There IS good Jungle / DnB being made today, but by god it's an effort and a half to track it down, and the audience is practically nil. I'd almost agree with the Zombie Genre thing if I didn't still have a lot of fun mixing the good stuff:

Bassbin (my family) / Offshore / Subtle Audio / Subvert Central / Inperspective / Immerse (hiya Kidkut)

Naphta / Macc / Sileni / Martsman / Amit / Breakage / Paradox / Seba

Also, the fact is, the 'underground' of Jungle / DnB is filled with incredibly nice, interesting people. There's a real family vibe at subvert central, and there's people all over the world who would make you feel welcome if you were passing. You might even get a gig out of em!

 

[borderpolice]

BP, I swear I'm not having wars with you but.....

Dont worry, i didn't think you were.

I disagree. Almost every artist's early work is their best and after 15 years most are shit. That's why "I like their early stuff" is such a cliche. There are exceptions but they are in the minority.

Hmmm, in some sense you are right. But i also think that i'm right at the same time . The music industry has a strong bias towards promoting youngsters, because the target audience wants stars they can identify with. Also, the industry drops artists rather quickly if they
are not very successful with their first or second release. All this means that essentially nobody over 28 or so has any real chance to make it as a musician in the forground. The only exception are the few superstars. But they have a brand to maintain and are expect to
continue to do the same things for the rest of their career. If you look at who's really making most of the music though, the producers, arrangers, studio musicians, composers, the picture is different. Finally, because it is really difficult to maintain a living in the long-term as a musician, few do.

I wonder if I'm loads older than you? I don't mean it in a patronising way, just that the things that seem important to me all happened much earlier. All your things are 90s, possibly very late 80s in the case of the west coast p-funk-sampling g-funk.

I'm prolly older than you, but i don't remember the 80s

here's a list of important changes that swept through rap music before your list:

1 - recording records with a band (previously there were live jams with rappers over DJs)
2 - drum machines and scratching (peter piper etc and electro)
3 - sampling (the SP12, cold chillin' etc)
4 - the money (hip hop stopped being made purely for creative expression and started being made to make money)

All this is correct, but at the beginning genres are more fluid than later in their life. Moreover all of this is mostly ornamental. It's not really affecting the main HipHop vocal style which has remained distinctive and recognisably similar over the years.

To me the mystery is (edit: as you said!) how come loads of young producers arrive on scenes like drum n bass and add nothing, just churn out copycat stuff.

Why is this?

Perhaps:
=they think they can make money by making what's popular (in which case why not just make rap?)
=they have no imagination
=the fact that it's so easy to hear tons of music these days without saving up for it means that they are too exposed to what's already\
out there at an early age and that suppresses their own ideas, the ideas that might've flourished if they'd grown up with, say, their \
parents' records plus being able to afford maybe 6 albums a year during their teens...??

I think I could be onto something in the last one!

Most important: "Great Artists don't borrow, they steal!" In addition, How about:

* One usually tried to make the kind of music one really likes.

* With established genres you have loads of sample CDs, articles, tutorials, even plug-ins or hardware to help achieve a given sound.

* Likewise, once a genre is solidified and has a reached a critical mass of established labels, DJs, clubs, risk-taking drops because they all have brands to defend: Grooverider doesn't get well-paid gigs in Quatar or Beijing if he gets experimental.

 

[zhao]

what's more... even highly regarded producers like Sound Murderer, from peak years, often leave me very, very cold. too busy, too many highs, not enough mids, just an unlistenable mess - after 2 minutes of constant zig zagging beats and effects cutting back and forth bouncing off the walls it's like who gives a shit? it might be "creative" but it's also ANNOYING.

 

[mms]

Not true, unfortunately. When I started DJing (94ish), I was working in a record shop that sold small amounts of Jungle, and fuckin loads of progressive house. The abuse I got was unbelievable!! It was good natured, but there was clearly a load of 'clubbers' who looked at jungle and the like as completely alien - far too fast with these weird beats. 'How do you dance to that?'

speed tribes, funny throw up of masses of people dancing to electronic music in the 90's!

 

[UFO over easy]

what's more... even highly regarded producers like Sound Murderer, from peak years, often leave me very, very cold. too busy, too many highs, not enough mids, just an unlistenable mess - after 2 minutes of constant zig zagging beats and effects cutting back and forth bouncing off the walls it's like who gives a shit? it might be "creative" but it's also ANNOYING.

we haven't been talking about the ragga jungle thing in this thread really. it's two completely different areas.

 

[sodiumnightlife]

bassnation, see in your blogariddims mix, the jungle/d n b at the end, what sort of era is that from? I quite liked that stuff. I know nothing about d n b really, apart from a few very precusory investigations into early jungle. However, I do know that all d n b clubs i've been in have done my nut in, and that I HATE pendulum.