Twees're Good (except they're not)
- Thread starter Ulala
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- big chill forum 2004
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Wild Horses
I was expecting tweestep there (not to be confused with tweenwave obviously).
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Agreed with most of that but not sure about the bit in bold. How does making stuff now fall under the category of things you 'consume'? Other than in the facile sense that if you paint, for example, you're presumably buying paints from someone else...
SecondLine
Well-known member
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Wild Horses
I think it probably depends on *why* you paint.
grizzleb
Well-known member
I mean in the sense that it's problematic if your ego is structured around it - if you spend your time picking mushrooms, painting abstract art and sewing and those things fill out how you think of yourself and give your life meaning then I think that can be problematic.
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Wild Horses
It probably also depends on how good your paintings are.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Why? Why can it be "problematic"? How the fuck else do you "give your life meaning"? I really cannot understand the ultra-cynicism that gets displayed here sometimes. What the hell is wrong with just doing things you like as long as you're not hurting other people? There's nothing wrong with taking pride in stuff you're good at and people have been doing that long before anyone had any concept of "consumerism".
Some of the posts in this thread are skirting dangerously near to the attitude of a snotty, chronically negative teenager who thinks everything anyone does is "gay" and "sad".
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grizzleb
Well-known member
I just can't see much of a difference between trying your personality in with the stuff you buy and tying your personality in with the stuff you do. I guess I'd look for meaning in life in more ones dealings with other people. I dunno, I'm just thinking out loud. And obviously doing something because you enjoy it is fine - I think it's a problem when that becomes something to be displayed to other people ostentatiously as proof of a worthwhile existence and also the standard upon which you to judge other people - when it isn't really very important in that way at all.
SecondLine
Well-known member
surely this is precisely what anyone who makes any kind of art does. You can do that and maintain a healthy dose of humility/perspective. I'm kind of with mr. Tea here, this thread is burning a lot of bridges. what ARE we allowed to do?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
OK, I can at least partly agree with that - though you didn't say that in your previous post. All the same, there's nothing wrong with taking pride in things you do if you do them well. I like it when people enjoy eating food I've cooked or reading things I've written (then again, I also do both purely for my own pleasure). I know a few people who DJ and organise club nights and obviously it's great for them when loads of people turn up and have a good time, quite apart from whatever money they make. I've never been much of a sportsman myself but of course it's a huge thrill to win a race or be part of a winning team.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying the approbation of others as long as it doesn't become your raison d'etre, and anyone who claims they don't care what anyone thinks of them is almost certainly lying (unless they're literally a hermit living in a cave somewhere) and in fact is probably just saying it because they think the person they're saying it to will think they're a bit of a bad-ass.
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Wild Horses
I have no issue with the second bit, but I tend to think all actions have an effect on other people, even if only as part of a wider series of events, and I think to retreat to the cliches of liberalism is to completely miss the point of why twee is so infuriating - which is that it exploits the aesthetics of liberalism so well as a survival strategy, but in a way that is ultimately deeply pernicious.
SecondLine
Well-known member
I think this is one of the biggest lies in art. Maybe this is just because I'm an exhibitionist, but I can't see how anybody makes anything without at least partly anticipating the response of an intended audience. This response is what fuels and inspires good music/whatever else. You can call that arrogance if you want but you'll be calling an awful lot of people arrogant
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Where's the inconsistency here? I like it when a sentence or a story turns out the way I wanted it to and I enjoy it when other people tell me they've enjoyed things I've written. Or cooked, or whatever. Doesn't have to be either/or.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I wasn't mounting a defence of tweeness per se, just responding to grizzleb's rather odd statement that doing or making things is somehow not inherently different from buying things. Which I think is ridiculous, I mean it starts to look like an attack on the entire concept of art and culture in general.
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Wild Horses
Yeah I think that's taking things too far, but I think I can kinda sorta get my head round what he's getting at - we're back to hipsters again; a lot of them, if not most of them, are 'creative' but the problem is that a lot of it isn't very good, or at least has little 'crossover' appeal, and thus it looks more like a game of identity and status ("It's like a mix of religious iconography with a Saved By the Bell vibe?"). Of course identity and status are always part of the game, but a lot of 'creativity' steps over the lines of taste in that regard today I feel.
grizzleb
Well-known member
Flip it round the other way then - what really is so bad about consumerism per se? I can't see a rigid dividing line or reason they are inherently different.
I think part of the problem as I see it is that in the present time the internet allows to proliferate the number of niche activities and interests that one can be engaged in - and that's all well and good, except when it becomes something that eventually becomes anathema to what culture can be seen as being really about. That is - inclusive and about getting groups of people together. When music becomes for solo, ipod listening and not something to be appreciated communallly then I find that a bit odd.
Culture stops being transparent and something that people are simply 'engaged in' and starts to become something that you bear some moral/aesthetic responsibility for. You don't just make home-made jam because it's something you do, you start to make jam because it would really be cool to. It's like a second-order culture or something. Culture via the explicit 'life-choosing' of the subject rather than just people doing things that are accepted and common.
I think part of the problem as I see it is that in the present time the internet allows to proliferate the number of niche activities and interests that one can be engaged in - and that's all well and good, except when it becomes something that eventually becomes anathema to what culture can be seen as being really about. That is - inclusive and about getting groups of people together. When music becomes for solo, ipod listening and not something to be appreciated communallly then I find that a bit odd.
Culture stops being transparent and something that people are simply 'engaged in' and starts to become something that you bear some moral/aesthetic responsibility for. You don't just make home-made jam because it's something you do, you start to make jam because it would really be cool to. It's like a second-order culture or something. Culture via the explicit 'life-choosing' of the subject rather than just people doing things that are accepted and common.
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
AIUI (and probably oversimplifying massively) there are two basic problems that leftists have with consumerism:
i) it gives people temporary fulfilment that distracts them from seeking Authentic Fulfilment through Revolutionary Political Change
ii) it locks people into a work / buy / consume cycle and convinces them that contemporary capitalism is necessary because without it they wouldn't have all the stuff that they 'need'.
i) applies to "stuff that you do" just as well as "stuff you buy", although I'm unconvinced by it as an argument in general.
ii) doesn't apply directly to "stuff that you do", except that stuff that you do is often either inherently or artificially dependent on stuff that you buy - so when you decide you're interested in making your own jam, you go out and buy a couple of books about jam making, tonnes of soft fruit, a jam pan, some jars, sticky labels etc etc etc. If you keep shifting around different hobbies and keep buying all the kit then this can be about as expensive as keeping yourself in the latest trainers... on the other hand, if you make do with what you've already got and stick at it, then I don't think this argument holds water particularly either. So I suppose we're getting back to the idea that you can do stuff in a consumerist way or a non consumerist way, no?
i) it gives people temporary fulfilment that distracts them from seeking Authentic Fulfilment through Revolutionary Political Change
ii) it locks people into a work / buy / consume cycle and convinces them that contemporary capitalism is necessary because without it they wouldn't have all the stuff that they 'need'.
i) applies to "stuff that you do" just as well as "stuff you buy", although I'm unconvinced by it as an argument in general.
ii) doesn't apply directly to "stuff that you do", except that stuff that you do is often either inherently or artificially dependent on stuff that you buy - so when you decide you're interested in making your own jam, you go out and buy a couple of books about jam making, tonnes of soft fruit, a jam pan, some jars, sticky labels etc etc etc. If you keep shifting around different hobbies and keep buying all the kit then this can be about as expensive as keeping yourself in the latest trainers... on the other hand, if you make do with what you've already got and stick at it, then I don't think this argument holds water particularly either. So I suppose we're getting back to the idea that you can do stuff in a consumerist way or a non consumerist way, no?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I'm not gonna bother answering this because I'm sure you or I could easily come up with several good reasons without having to think very hard. Plus Slothrop's already answered it and he hasn't even touched on the environmental aspect of consumerism, how incredibly wasteful it is - perfectly usable iPads tossed aside just because the latest, shiniest version has been released; planned obsolescence - it's a complete disaster.
I think we're coming back almost to a zhaoist stance on 'authenticity' here. I don't really care why someone is making jam, if they get pleasure from it then that's fine as far as I'm concerned. Plus if there's a 'hipster' element to it then they're more likely to be doing it with friends than someone making jam-in-itself, so they can show off their l33t jam-making sk1llz. And chances are they'll get bored of it after a couple of months and move onto the next cool thing. Urban drystone-walling, probably.
Ultimately, if I were compiling a list of all the things that are wrong with the world right now, hipster jam-makers would probably not be in the top ten.