The New Transparency

[luka]

you can make the law but it would be impossible to enforce. you cant spend your whole day shaking your fist at people. its not worth it

 

[Leo]

street performers here can get vocal if someone taking video or photos walks away without dropping at least a few coins in the basket. I know you guys aren't that kind of performer, but still.

could have a sign saying "donations appreciated for any photos" or something.

 

[Clinamenic]

Or you can just curse them.

 

[haji]

Whereas here, there are a dozen established members who make sure we practice skepticism about corporate interests.

edit: that is to say, I feel my efforts would be redundant there, but in taking such liberties my naivete becomes more susceptible.

contrarian identity formation in action

 

[Clinamenic]

Yeah maybe dialectician is just a euphemism.

Although I have sensed how this has gotten in the way of some social relations, and how important it is sometimes to just validate someone's perspective, rather than perpetually challenging it. But that is the nature of my inner dialogue: dialectical. The main reason I admire Marx.

That said, that doesn't always mean such a practice should carry over to external dialogues.

 

[Clinamenic]

Is "contrarian identity formation" an established term?

 

[luka]

as ive said before ive often found myself arguing opposite sides of the same argument at the very same time, eg
here and on email, back and forth, and beleiving everything i say in each case.

 

[haji]

Is "contrarian identity formation" an established term?

it is now

 

[Clinamenic]

I think that can be a sign of maturity, so long as from each angle you can recognize past oversights and current blindspots. That seems to be what distinguishes this kind of internal dialectic from just plain old hypocrisy.

 

[Clinamenic]

But the contrarian thing riles people up more than I often recognize or care to admit. I tacitly and naively assume that everyone else is relentlessly galvanizing themselves with internal dialogue, and so they must not mind if I assume the role of the antithesis. Of course, it seems to just upset people, i.e. the fate of Socrates.

 

[luka]

what youre really trying to get to is ratios, weights and measures, so this person needs to hear this to tilt them slightly in the other direction, another person needs to hear the opposite thing. the arguments dont mean anything at all in and of themselves

 

[Clinamenic]

And that people are able to detach themselves from a given ideological perspective, and argue an opposing one with dispassionate rigor. As @luka says it helps to believe conflicting arguments.

 

[Clinamenic]

what youre really trying to get to is ratios, weights and measures, so this person needs to hear this to tilt them slightly in the other direction, another person needs to hear the opposite thing. the arguments dont mean anything at all in and of themselves

Totally, but personally I often get caught up on the arguments themselves, largely out of ignorance of the point you just made, but also partially because I am not just concerned with the other person in question, but rather a sort of pure conceptual framework of arguments, in which case the arguments themselves carry more of a weight.

Although lately this seems to be a ton of unnecessary baggage, and stands to be distilled and simplified greatly. I'm just saying that the dialectical method does give me a sense of order and understanding, if even a contrived one.

 

[Clinamenic]

it is now

That Clinamenic, a textbook case of CIF.

 

[luka]

i wonder what Stans friends are like? you come from LA art aristocracy so im picturing a very chichi group, huge wealth,
everyone outrageously beautiful

 

[luka]

it was evident in that picture you showed us. the effortless self-assurance, the ease in front of the camera, the clothes

 

[Leo]

what youre really trying to get to is ratios, weights and measures, so this person needs to hear this to tilt them slightly in the other direction, another person needs to hear the opposite thing. the arguments dont mean anything at all in and of themselves

that's exactly what PR people do for a living. different audiences have different things that interest and sway them, so PRs use targeted spin to influence a desired behavior or belief from each audience segment.

 

[woops]

i wonder what Stans friends are like? you come from LA art aristocracy so im picturing a very chichi group, huge wealth,
everyone outrageously beautiful

A culture mafia

 

[Leo]

PR people don't actually care about the topic at hand, they're just hired to represent a client.

 

[luka]

ok, Leo, you win, i will join your PR firm. where do i sign?