White people ruining shit for other white people

[forclosure]

Barty as Norman Mailer is brilliant.

😂

was reading this thing about Cecil Taylor where he had place at the Five Spot for gigs and whatever Mailer must've been in there one day and drinking and listening to the music then out of nowhere he stood up and made this statement saying he came from the Jazz Gallery(Thelonious Monk was working there) and he said that he thought Taylor was better than Monk and that all the people from the Gallery should be over there listening to him.

Taylor got fired from the Five Spot cause a certain powerful friend of Monk's heard all that

 

[forclosure]

Honestly I'm overstating the classical influence right now, but I do doubt my ability to engage. If you could narrow it down to maybe 2 or 3 picks I'm down.

can do them 2 at a time no problem

 

[Clinamenic]

woops says he still suspects he might just be a state of the art bot

In greater seriousness, perhaps I'm just 15 years ahead of the cultural curve by deep-larping as a programatic intelligence.

 

[luka]

Monk and Cecil both too highbrow for me. i've tried but i can't reach it.

 

[forclosure]

Monk and Cecil both too highbrow for me. i've tried but i can't reach it.

nah they're not honestly they're not you should read Greg Tate's thing on Taylor really gets across what makes his stuff interesting and he doesn't harp on the "difficulty" of it which is something i feel so many people do when they talk about his music

 

[Clinamenic]

I really like what I've heard from Duke Ellington, and this is a case where a white person (Michel Gondry) actually made me like it, via his usage of the music in his films.

 

[luka]

webbie, to be fair, is very catholic in his tastes. there was more rock music than rap in his top 100 from what i remember.

nah they're not honestly they're not you should read Greg Tate's thing on Taylor really gets across what makes his stuff interesting and he doesn't harp on the "difficulty" of it which is something i feel so many people do when they talk about his music

name me your favourite album and i'll listen to it start to finish and freak out my new neighbours

 

[Clinamenic]

I also think ragtime may be an organic transition from classical.

 

[version]

I really like what I've heard from Duke Ellington, and this is a case where a white person (Michel Gondry) actually made me like it, via his usage of the music in his films.

My racist grandfather loved Duke Ellington.

 

[forclosure]

i mean to go back to my Rawkus point that divide over rap at that time was kind of a microcosm of this problem cuase that stuff started out as a "if you know you know" sort of thing and since then has basically been treated as the entryway for alot of people to get into rap who don't want any of the difficult stuff (even if the rap from that time had much the same problems)

 

[Clinamenic]

My racist grandfather loved Duke Ellington.

Well clearly it wasn't racism then, he just despised the musical integrity of 99.9% of black people?

 

[WashYourHands]

Maybe re-title the thread to “interfering white racist middle class cunts ruining it for everyone”

 

[luka]

Well clearly it wasn't racism then, he just despised the musical integrity of 99.9% of black people?

lots of racists love black music cos black music is great. never underestimate peoples ability to hold contradictions/compartmentalise.

 

[forclosure]

I also think ragtime may be an organic transition from classical.

i mean...sir that's one part of ragtime but tings like this is what fed into the sort of envy chasing the dragon things with jazz musicians where they felt like they had to prove they could play classical music before they could the music they where most comfortable with e.g. third stream

 

[shakahislop]

only read the first two posts of the thread, but i have noticed that talking about hip hop in england (mostly with real people rather than the internet, which is an important distinction) is an area where i've encountered some of the most dickhead responses over the years. the one that sticks in my mind is someone pretty much laughing in my face when i told them i liked JME, over drinks in Audio in Brighton in about 2008. but there have been a few things like that and basically in england i am a bit wary of talking about it much, not least because my hiphop taste leans towards the garish and mainstream (as in, mainstream in the US), and that does tend to get looked down on a bit, and i find the 'backpacker' stuff essentially quite boring. aesop rock obviously, but even a lot of the griselda stuff that i think seems to be popular with those types.

i have always vaguely assumed that this is something to do with the decontextualised nature of being into an artform where the engine of it is on another continent. lets face it, its really hard to know much about what black americans are like if you're not around and seeing it with your own eyes (much less participating in it). there is a kind of insecurity there i think, people trying to one-up one another. which is an interesting question for a forum like dissensus actually.

 

[luka]

i mean to go back to my Rawkus point that divide over rap at that time was kind of a microcosm of this problem cuase that stuff started out as a "if you know you know" sort of thing and since then has basically been treated as the entryway for alot of people to get into rap who don't want any of the difficult stuff (even if the rap from that time had much the same problems)

we've got a thread on it its called hip-hop culture wars i think

 

[forclosure]

lots of racists love black music cos black music is great. never underestimate peoples ability to hold contradictions/compartmentalise.

EXACTLY what my mum said when i told her some Canadian breh i knew said he never heard Luther Vandross outside of Bowie's Young Americans album

"say what you want about English people they might hate black people but they love black music"

 

[Clinamenic]

i mean...sir that's one part of ragtime but tings like this is what fed into the sort of envy chasing the dragon things with jazz musicians where they felt like they had to prove they could play classical music before they could the music they where most comfortable with e.g. third stream

Yeah as much as I'm enamored with classical right now, I think its clear that kind of gatekeeping is misguided. There are other roads to excellence.

 

[shakahislop]

i feel like there's a whole load of other sensitivities at play in the US though. i bike around nyc a lot blaring tunes out of a speaker like an arsehole (i love it and its quite a lot safer than headphones, so its worth it); one thing that i don't put on is hip hop. some black guy laughed at me once for doing that as i went past, and it just feels so much more like i'm engaging in some kind of controversial thing. hip hop can be a sensitive space i guess. in a way that even banging out dancehall tunes, despite them being way more offensive because of the homophobic lyrics, doesn't feel sensitive at all

 

[version]

The music that was most looked down upon when I was in school was actually dance music, specifically stuff like bassline and hardstyle which people would label as "chavvy".