The Republican War on Transgender People, Drag Queens, and Queerness in General

[mixed_biscuits]

re conversion therapy they are not analogous:

If gay people feel incorrectly oriented this is considered to be a result of a discriminatory social context; any feelings of intrinsic dysphoria presumably stem from this.

Generally wannabe transitioners' dysphoria is presented as being intrinsic rather than as a result of social construction. If they could do away with the dysphoric feeling with a pill, they would presumably take it.*

Furthermore, the sex change solution is literally conversion therapy, and one that is not easy to undergo.

I also get the impression that gay identity is more monolithic than trans as e.g. some transwomen describe themselves as 'transwomen' while others describe themselves as 'women'. Moreover, no-one has dysphoria from the feeling that they should be trans. The conversion is between the two poles of the standard binary, which appear to be fundamental.

*There do however seem to be transitioners who do not have dysphoria. From browsing a trans forum some time ago I got the impression there were almost two classes of trans people. One class which considers itself to be more transy as they converted because of dysphoria, and another class held in less esteem as they did so without stating the same prime motivation.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

A philosophical thought: the disorderliness of gender dysphoria is the mismatch between mind and body. For some reason this has generally elicited an old-fashioned philosophical perspective. Firstly, the mind and body are considered to be significantly independent of each other; secondly, in dualist fashion, the body is then considered also to be subservient to, and of lower status than, the mind. Following this premise, solutions then focus on bringing the body to heel to match the mind. The body is considered unhealthy. The mind is considered healthy, and the integrity of the mind's products should be preserved.

The more modern perspective is that there is no separation, with the mind being as much the body as the body is. This would then mean that one isn't obliged to follow the mind's dictates or preserve its current state any more than one was obliged to preserve the body's state in the typical transitioning process. One is at liberty to hack at the mind (which is the body) as much as at the rest of the body with the sole aim of eliciting a stable coherence in the indivisible whole.

 

[thirdform]

who decides who is wannabe or not though? Presumably according to your worldview parents and doctors can be seen as equally complicit. Christians have no such qualms. Everyone is a wannabe transitioner, be them children or adults it makes no difference, to them.

It's kind of hilarious you're strenuously trying to secularise a worldview rooted fundamentally in the US christian right. But everyone knows you're a British liberal non-religious alcoholic.

 

[luka]

if he's an alboholic he's not a very good one. when we took him to the pub a few years back he sipped tentatively at a mild ale for about 45 minutes.

 

[thirdform]

if he's an alboholic he's not a very good one. when we took him to the pub a few years back he sipped tentatively at a mild ale for about 45 minutes.

I have very low standards for the English, you should know that.

 

[Leo]

It's kind of hilarious you're strenuously trying to secularise a worldview rooted fundamentally in the US christian right.

this kind of crystalizes it.

 

[Mr. Tea]

if he's an alboholic he's not a very good one. when we took him to the pub a few years back he sipped tentatively at a mild ale for about 45 minutes.

If there's one thing I ban't stand it's bunts who ban't take their albohol.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I see biscuits spewed forth a whole heap of bullshit in my absence

let's go thru it

AFAICT, until at least very recently, people who wanted to transition in some substantial way had to convince the professionals involved that this desire was properly grounded. In this sense there is objectivity involved. You're pushing an informal increasingly prevalent angle that is unrepresentative and unhelpful not least as, if it's all a social construct, then presumably the problems could be fixed by social engineering.

That is still absolutely the case. There is certainly nowhere in the US or Europe (I cannot speak to everywhere in the world with as much certainty) where you can get HRT, let alone GRS, without convincing medical professionals to authorize it. That is doubly the case for minors. The idea that gender-affirming care is easily available with no controls is simply a lie, one of the most pernicious one put forward by the TERF/GC crowd. Average wait times in the UK are in years, not months. It is precisely why so many people are forced to go gray/black market. There is a mountain of evidence suggesting that gender-affirming care seriously improves quality of life, and that regret rates are quite low. It should be easier rather than more difficult to obtain.

And the idea there can about any objective view of anything related to a social construct is pure nonsense. If there can be an objective view of gender outside of gender as social construct, then why has it been expressed in a such a hugely wide range of ways across different human cultures and at different points in history? Who is the arbiter of what is and is not "properly grounded" gender expression? You? Kathleen Stock? It's ridiculous.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Yes, I've noticed something of this ilk. The trans women on dating sites have a definite STEM bias, being software developers, programmers etc. It's not as if they're transitioning because they are more in touch with their essential intuitive self but because they are less in touch with it, and these things seem more possible in the abstract to people who think abstractly. They are also more lightly rooted in the social world, less sensitive to cues and convention, and probably have a more positive experience of transitioning because they are less sensitive to negative social feedback. But that's purely my folk theory.

it's been a long time since I've seen someone manage to shove that many stereotypes - based on the most cursory of "evidence" - into a single paragraph. manages to be deeply yet concisely offensive to both trans women and stereotypes of programmers, specifically related to the autism spectrum. impressive, in a sense.

idk if I even need to get into how ridiculous this is - some rando on Internet extrapolates people's internal mindsets and experience of self from briefly (and creepily) scoping their dating profiles. have you ever, yunno, try actually talking to any of these people? or any trans person? bc I, unlike you, know trans people, and specifically trans programmers, and their experiences are, unsurprisingly, hugely more varied and complex than your list of cliches.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I got involved when people were laying into Benny B over childhood surgery. The fact that none of you will offer your personal opinion on what you think is a reasonable lower age limit makes your position seem rather unconsidered and your invective unreasonable. You don't even have a position on that score!

I already gave an age limit upthread, and "what's your age limit bro" is very obviously trying to produce some kind of gotcha moment, but whatever, I'll give it again

18 for GRS, 14-15 for other gender-affirming surgeries depending on the patient. Parental consent should be required, or if that is impossible (if for example parents are absent and/or abusive) some other legal guardian adult who isn't a medical professional involved in the treatment. As I also said upthread, any age limit - on any issue - will be to some degree arbitrary bc everyone matures emotionally/mentally at a different rate, but I'm fine with those.

also, "laying into Benny B over childhood surgery" is a complete misrepresentation of what happened. Benny refused point-blank to acknowledge that trans people have a right to exist. Benny takes - or used to, until he was challenged on it - every opportunity to post (generally made-up) TERF propaganda. gender-affirming care for minors was only one issue of many.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

re conversion therapy they are not analogous:

If gay people feel incorrectly oriented this is considered to be a result of a discriminatory social context; any feelings of intrinsic dysphoria presumably stem from this.

Generally wannabe transitioners' dysphoria is presented as being intrinsic rather than as a result of social construction. If they could do away with the dysphoric feeling with a pill, they would presumably take it.*

Furthermore, the sex change solution is literally conversion therapy, and one that is not easy to undergo.

I also get the impression that gay identity is more monolithic than trans as e.g. some transwomen describe themselves as 'transwomen' while others describe themselves as 'women'. Moreover, no-one has dysphoria from the feeling that they should be trans. The conversion is between the two poles of the standard binary, which appear to be fundamental.

*There do however seem to be transitioners who do not have dysphoria. From browsing a trans forum some time ago I got the impression there were almost two classes of trans people. One class which considers itself to be more transy as they converted because of dysphoria, and another class held in less esteem as they did so without stating the same prime motivation.

first off, GTFOH with "wannabe". you're a wannabe gatekeeper of gender-affirming care.

gay identity absolutely is not more, or less monolithic, than trans identity. anyone who knew anything about gay people would know that gay identity is diverse, sometimes fractious, and anything monolithic. a straight guy looking in at queer people is the last person who should be telling queer people about their identities.

you also fundamentally don't understand dysphoria. the idea that people would happily take a pill to feel like a cis man/woman is both ridiculous and offensive. your description of "conversion" is also wrong. you entirely ignore - unsurprisingly, bc you are quite ignorant (yet, in true toxic masculinity fashion, feel comfortably authoritatively proclaiming on) of queer people - the fluidity of both gender identity (i.e. non-binary, genderqueer, genderfluid, etc people) and sexuality. GRS as "conversion therapy" is a pure, and absurd, TERF/GC line, as well as also being offensive. actual conversion therapy is a terrible practice forced on gay people by religious fanatics; its equivalent is the kind of "exploratory therapy" proposed by GC ideologues like Stella O'Malley.

finally, why exactly are you browsing trans forums, and trying to clock them on dating sites? this is the kind of thing you see on Twitter all the time - (cis) people whose entire lives seem to revolve around obsessing over trans people. like, why are you obsessed with this particular issue (or this and anti-vax nonsense I guess)? for me it's life and death for loved ones and community. what's your deal? (not implying this either way here - I have no idea - but I'll note that this kind of obsession, unsurprisingly, often goes hand-in-hand with a closeted attraction to trans women, to the point that it's its own stereotype)

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

who decides who is wannabe or not though? Presumably according to your worldview parents and doctors can be seen as equally complicit. Christians have no such qualms. Everyone is a wannabe transitioner, be them children or adults it makes no difference, to them.

It's kind of hilarious you're strenuously trying to secularise a worldview rooted fundamentally in the US christian right.

you said it more concisely than me. yes, that is exactly it.

for all the moral hysteria about children, when you get down to it, it is always the same old saw of telling trans people that they are not the best arbiters of their own identities. which should be familiar, as it has been (and continues to be) used against gay people since forever, and with the same motivations.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

well gender dysmorphia was literally considered a mental disorder by the scientific community up until 2013 so it's not quite the same but I get what you're saying

homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder in the DSM up until 1973. if you want to go back further, look up proposed disorders like sluggish schizophrenia and drapetomania. such things should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[entertainment]

homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder in the DSM up until 1973. if you want to go back further, look up proposed disorders like sluggish schizophrenia and drapetomania. such things should be taken with a grain of salt.

a condition requiring serious medical intervention obviously puts it within the boundaries of what you would classically, disinterestedly refer to as an illness or a disorder. seeing as there are obvious concerns as to why it might not be very nice to call it an illness or a disorder, i think it's perfectly alright to advise against it. but let's not be daft and compare it to something that requires no medical intervention.

 

[Mr. Tea]

There are demolitions, and then there are demolitions...

It's almost enough to make you feel sorry for biccies, if he wasn't such an oily little bigot.

 

[bunnnnnn]

I do not have a fucking "condition", my being trans did not a priori require me to have medical intervention. If I had never taken HRT or had surgery I would still be trans and would still be a woman. Medical intervention was something I sought of my own volition in order to bring my self identity and self perception into better alignment with how I would like to be seen in the world, both for my own comfort and my personal safety.

 

[entertainment]

a condition. a state of being. a something being the case.

aren't trans people saying that it's medical intervention or suicide? that's what i mean by requiring medical intervention.

 

[HMGovt’s Glorious Return!]

I do not have a fucking "condition", my being trans did not a priori require me to have medical intervention. If I had never taken HRT or had surgery I would still be trans and would still be a woman. Medical intervention was something I sought of my own volition in order to bring my self identity and self perception into better alignment with how I would like to be seen in the world, both for my own comfort and my personal safety.

Everybody's so creative!

 

[bunnnnnn]

a condition. a state of being. a something being the case.

aren't trans people saying that it's medical intervention or suicide? that's what i mean by requiring medical intervention.

For some trans people this is the case, for others not. You're aware that "condition" in the context you're using it implies a medical condition / 'disorder'. "Gender dysphoria", which would potentially give rise to that feeling, is a condition, but gender dysphoria isn't a precondition of being trans

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I see biscuits spewed forth a whole heap of bullshit in my absence

let's go thru it


That is still absolutely the case. There is certainly nowhere in the US or Europe (I cannot speak to everywhere in the world with as much certainty) where you can get HRT, let alone GRS, without convincing medical professionals to authorize it. That is doubly the case for minors. The idea that gender-affirming care is easily available with no controls is simply a lie, one of the most pernicious one put forward by the TERF/GC crowd. Average wait times in the UK are in years, not months. It is precisely why so many people are forced to go gray/black market. There is a mountain of evidence suggesting that gender-affirming care seriously improves quality of life, and that regret rates are quite low. It should be easier rather than more difficult to obtain.

And the idea there can about any objective view of anything related to a social construct is pure nonsense. If there can be an objective view of gender outside of gender as social construct, then why has it been expressed in a such a hugely wide range of ways across different human cultures and at different points in history? Who is the arbiter of what is and is not "properly grounded" gender expression? You? Kathleen Stock? It's ridiculous.

Yes, you are right. People can express themselves in myriad ways whichever sex they are, with that expression being authentic. This weakens GNC behaviour spotting, and putting children on that pipeline purely because of behaviour.