The Feminine Perspective against the Manosphere

[Mr. Tea]

Or, more directly: people like the "Phallus." It gives them meaning. Why fight that?

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't fairly fond of mine.

 

[malelesbian]

You just relocate your essentialism in behaviour and keep contradicting yourself on whether communities get to define identity or individuals or both.

There can be no "essentialism about behavior" because behavior is always changing. Behavior is a process, not a fixed state.

And I have never wavered on my claim that communities, not individuals decide on the definition of a particular gender.

Once again, is the phallus "male"? The semantics here are tiresome.

The phallus is masculine, not male. Both male and female people can act phallic.

But again—they engage of their own free will. There is all the material in the world online, and people get to understand how they constitute their own sense of meaning.

But people don't choose for the phallus to repress feminine culture. A system larger than individuals hides femininity.

Even if the choice was free, I'm not discouraging people from acting phallic. I'm encouraging people to act non-phallic.

Please, go on pinterest, go on Tumblr. There may not be exact, 1:1 balance, but the idea that culture entirely occludes feminine experience is straight out of the 1950s. It wasn't true in 1968, it's so much less true today, the battle for access to minds is over.

Nope, we have not yet achieved equal gender representation in our society's entire culture. Why do you think we have? You're going to have to give examples.

Hell, if feminine culture is so well represented in our society, what do you do represent femininity? It must be easy for you to promote feminine culture, since it's apparently so well-represented. And no, just being friends with women is not an acceptable answer here. You have to actually promote a cultural alternative to the phallus. You need to step outside of your own desires and learn to live for others.

It's clear that access to a narrative that supports an antipathy to our so-called Phallus—ie, having symbolic capital and agency and participating in the construction of society—is available to people if they simply look.

Where do I look? It's not clear that feminine culture is accessible at all.
Also, your definition of the phallus is totally wrong. It has, again, nothing to do with symbolic capital. But it also has nothing to do with agency and participating in the construction of society. All people have agency and construct society. How can constructing society be a gendered quality when people construct gender?

This is the creed of every ideologue—"my ideas are hidden, nobody can access them, this harms society." Have you considered that they're right there on Wikipedia, and people see them, and find them unappealing and unworthy of engagement?

If you're reading Wikipedia to learn about philosophy, you're not a very good scholar, sorry. Read SEP or IEP!

Or, more directly: people like the "Phallus." It gives them meaning. Why fight that?

Because the phallus represses femininity. The phallus prevents equal cultural representation of both genders. If you don't want to oppose the phallus just because people like it, you're probably not interested in doing feminism. I'm not undermining the meaning the phallus does give us, I'm promoting an alternative.

'Gender' can't be defined without reference to biological sex; try it.

Basically no feminist today believes biological essentialism about gender. Bascially every feminist today defines gender without reference to biological sex.

 

[malelesbian]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't fairly fond of mine.

Phallus =/= penis, try again.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Phallus =/= penis, try again.

Thus it's yet another pointlessly gendered term for something that intrinsically has nothing to do with either sex or gender, right?

Bascially every feminist today defines gender without reference to biological sex.

This is obviously total horseshit, isn't it. There are plenty of feminists who consider biological sex of huge importance. You may disapprove of them or disagree with them, but pretending they don't exist is just silly.

 

[malelesbian]

Thus it's yet another pointlessly gendered term for something that intrinsically has nothing to do with either sex or gender, right?

Sure, we'll say that for now.

This is obviously total horseshit, isn't it. There are plenty of feminists who consider biological sex of huge importance. You may disapprove of them or disagree with them, but pretending they don't exist is just silly.

Well the whole tradition following and leading up to Butler defines gender without reference to biological sex. Plenty of feminists consider biological sex important, I never denied that. But any feminist who distinguishes sex from gender will not define gender in terms of sex, because doing so would reduce gender to sex. And most feminists accept the distinction between sex and gender.

If you know an anti-essentialist feminist who defines gender in terms of sex, that's on you to say who that is. We want an anti-essentialist view about gender, and the best way to do that is to define gender in social, phenomenal, non-biological terms.

 

[CorpseysEvilTwin]

There can be no "essentialism about behavior" because behavior is always changing. Behavior is a process, not a fixed state.

And I have never wavered on my claim that communities, not individuals decide on the definition of a particular gender.

The phallus is masculine, not male. Both male and female people can act phallic.


But people don't choose for the phallus to repress feminine culture. A system larger than individuals hides femininity.

Even if the choice was free, I'm not discouraging people from acting phallic. I'm encouraging people to act non-phallic.


Nope, we have not yet achieved equal gender representation in our society's entire culture. Why do you think we have? You're going to have to give examples.

Hell, if feminine culture is so well represented in our society, what do you do represent femininity? It must be easy for you to promote feminine culture, since it's apparently so well-represented. And no, just being friends with women is not an acceptable answer here. You have to actually promote a cultural alternative to the phallus. You need to step outside of your own desires and learn to live for others.

Where do I look? It's not clear that feminine culture is accessible at all.
Also, your definition of the phallus is totally wrong. It has, again, nothing to do with symbolic capital. But it also has nothing to do with agency and participating in the construction of society. All people have agency and construct society. How can constructing society be a gendered quality when people construct gender?



If you're reading Wikipedia to learn about philosophy, you're not a very good scholar, sorry. Read SEP or IEP!



Because the phallus represses femininity. The phallus prevents equal cultural representation of both genders. If you don't want to oppose the phallus just because people like it, you're probably not interested in doing feminism. I'm not undermining the meaning the phallus does give us, I'm promoting an alternative.


Basically no feminist today believes biological essentialism about gender. Bascially every feminist today defines gender without reference to biological sex.

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[ghost]

Nope, we have not yet achieved equal gender representation in our society's entire culture. Why do you think we have? You're going to have to give examples.

it is infuriating that you failed to read any words you quoted and replied to.

let me just quote myself again:

Please, go on pinterest, go on Tumblr. There may not be exact, 1:1 balance, but the idea that culture entirely occludes feminine experience is straight out of the 1950s. It wasn't true in 1968, it's so much less true today, the battle for access to minds is over.

I am arguing that a non-zero quantity of culture focuses the feminine experience. For the sake of argument only, I'll say it's maybe somewhere around 30%. You can give a different number. But if you think it's 10%, that's still my point: you can go online and find it. Someone maintains a website, someone maintains a forum for it. You can go to that website. Nobody is forcing anyone to watch anything.

The frame you're arguing with dates to when there were only four TV channels, and people needed to wage war to get their material on them. Today this is not true. Content and media don't function in a top-down way, they constantly funnel ideas up from everyday culture. Have you seen Tiktok? Empirically, women produce all the important content on Tiktok. What you're telling me is that the content you favor (which you've labelled "feminine," and which includes content made by male abusers like Joss Whedon) is losing to other things that you don't understand.

 

[malelesbian]

I am arguing that a non-zero quantity of culture focuses the feminine experience. For the sake of argument only, I'll say it's maybe somewhere around 30%. You can give a different number. But if you think it's 10%, that's still my point: you can go online and find it. Someone maintains a website, someone maintains a forum for it. You can go to that website. Nobody is forcing anyone to watch anything.

Yes, well neither of us can name any website that counts as feminine culture. So the point is moot until you can give an example. I've tried to say that Joshi wrestling counts as feminine culture, and others disagreed. Obviously I agree that feminine culture exists to some degree. The point is that it is underrepresented, that cultural representation is unequal and it should be equal. As long as less than 50% of culture is feminine, there will still be a need to promote feminine culture. I'm trying to promote feminine culture on this site, and your rejecting my efforts for obscure "reasons".

The frame you're arguing with dates to when there were only four TV channels, and people needed to wage war to get their material on them. Today this is not true. Content and media don't function in a top-down way, they constantly funnel ideas up from everyday culture.

I reject the technocratic myth that the internet did anything to combat the patriarchy or other oppressive social structures. If anything, the internet has only made men more misogynistic: look at the manosphere. Non-phallic culture existed back in the day when there were only four channels too: there was Anais Nin and Patti Smith. But feminine culture was atleast as marginalized then as it is now. And that marginalization is the problem. No one is saying that feminine culture doesn't exist, again you falsely think my claim about meaning is an ontological claim. The problem is that mainstream society does not focus on the non-phallic culture, it produces much more phallic content than it does non-phallic content, and it refuses to shine its spotlight on femininity.

Have you seen Tiktok? Empirically, women produce all the important content on Tiktok.

I'd love to know what TikToks you consider representative of feminine culture.

What you're telling me is that the content you favor (which you've labelled "feminine," and which includes content made by male abusers like Joss Whedon) is losing to other things that you don't understand.

What things is feminine culture losing to? Just because you're interested in a different kind of content than the one I like doesn't mean your type of content is beating mine in some sort of competition. Both of our favored kinds of content can coexist in harmony if you'll only let them.

I think the content I favor is more relevant today than it has ever been before, with so many people identifying as non-binary. Young adult fiction is feminine culture and that business is booming. Increased feminine representation is growing increasingly more popular in mainstream superhero movies and video games. Companies are marketing to women more than they ever have before. As time goes on I think feminine culture will only become more popular.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

There can be no "essentialism about behavior" because behavior is always changing. Behavior is a process, not a fixed state.

And I have never wavered on my claim that communities, not individuals decide on the definition of a particular gender.

...

Basically no feminist today believes biological essentialism about gender. Bascially every feminist today defines gender without reference to biological sex.

Only a page ago you said individuals could self-identify legitimately and that communities that disagree would be letting them down.

I need you to spell out how you define gender without reference to biology.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Sure, we'll say that for now.

Well the whole tradition following and leading up to Butler defines gender without reference to biological sex. Plenty of feminists consider biological sex important, I never denied that. But any feminist who distinguishes sex from gender will not define gender in terms of sex, because doing so would reduce gender to sex. And most feminists accept the distinction between sex and gender.

If you know an anti-essentialist feminist who defines gender in terms of sex, that's on you to say who that is. We want an anti-essentialist view about gender, and the best way to do that is to define gender in social, phenomenal, non-biological terms.

Society is completely dependent on human biology and the genotype. Culture expresses itself in a limited set of ways constrained by our biology.

Incidentally there are tens of cultural universals that are present in every culture known to history but I don't think the sex / 'gender' distinction is one of them.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Yes, well neither of us can name any website that counts as feminine culture. So the point is moot until you can give an example. I've tried to say that Joshi wrestling counts as feminine culture, and others disagreed. Obviously I agree that feminine culture exists to some degree. The point is that it is underrepresented, that cultural representation is unequal and it should be equal. As long as less than 50% of culture is feminine, there will still be a need to promote feminine culture. I'm trying to promote feminine culture on this site, and your rejecting my efforts for obscure "reasons".

How will you know when it's 50%?

 

[linebaugh]

Incidentally there are tens of cultural universals that are present in every culture known to history but I don't think the sex / 'gender' distinction is one of them.

??? The blurred lines between sex and gender and 'roles' and w/e is an absolutley huge part of the comparative anthropology you are talking about. Its one of the things thats always cited in these types of conversations.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

??? The blurred lines between sex and gender and 'roles' and w/e is an absolutley huge part of the comparative anthropology you are talking about. Its one of the things thats always cited in these types of conversations.

I'm referring to other cultures use of equivalent terms and discourse; you are just referring to western cultures' own particular interpretative lens, which itself is only a recent arrival and therefore not even universal within its own culture.

 

[linebaugh]

Breaking down the question to 'well they didnt talk about it like we do' is a small and silly point.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Incidentally there are tens of cultural universals that are present in every culture known to history but I don't think the sex / 'gender' distinction is one of them.

If you want to go down the route of appealing to "cultural universals", you've got to acknowledge that people who belong to a 'third gender', or who are accepted by their community as belonging to the gender opposite their biological sex, are found in many cultures, often as part of a tradition going back a very long way. So your assertion that trans people were 'invented' both in the West, and very recently, is flat wrong.

 

[WashYourHands]

Trending

#malelesbian
#hijra
#11 different chromosomal categories of sex
#(Gilchrist 1999, 61)
#(Fulton and Andersen 1992, 608)

 

[CorpseysEvilTwin]

Incidentally there are tens of cultural universals that are present in every culture known to history but I don't think the sex / 'gender' distinction is one of them.

biscuits stop bein' a Steam n just admit yer reject darwinian evolution because otherwise yer butchers hook like 'em septic liberal chelsea saucepan brass trying claim neanderthal cultures had language to make sex/gender distinction. stop with the old dodge n swerve attend the left on sundays!

don't gim'me the tosh about cultures being donkeys. did ye lord create gendered language or not. answer first!

 

[WashYourHands]

Trending

#ChelseaFC

 

[phil.]

When I hear the words "feminine culture"...

 

[mixed_biscuits]

If you want to go down the route of appealing to "cultural universals", you've got to acknowledge that people who belong to a 'third gender', or who are accepted by their community as belonging to the gender opposite their biological sex, are found in many cultures, often as part of a tradition going back a very long way. So your assertion that trans people were 'invented' both in the West, and very recently, is flat wrong.

You came up with a handful of practices that weren't the same out of countless cultural configurations - you're a country mile away from providing a universal.

@linebaugh it only appears a 'small' matter if all you can see is the culture in which you are already embedded.

I dare say many cultures don't even have the terms to distinguish between sex and gender, not least because all the work that 'gender' does can be done in plain English in a far more comprehensible way, natch.