global financial crash yay!

vimothy

yurp
Some good stuff (if a tad apocalyptic) from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard:

Commodities and emerging markets risk free-fall
The entire complex of commodities and emerging market stocks, bonds, and currencies is now in free-fall as the economic crisis spreads like brushfire, writes Ambrose Evans-Pritchard.​

So much for tirades against US greed
Most eyes are still on Washington, but the core danger is shifting across the Atlantic - it turns out that European regulators have allowed even greater use of "off-books" chicanery than the Americans.​

Germany is now in the hot seat
Unless there is immediate intervention on every front by all the major powers acting in concert, we risk a disintegration of global finance within days. Nobody will be spared, unless they own gold bars.​
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
"Commodities and emerging markets risk free-fall
The entire complex of commodities and emerging market stocks, bonds, and currencies is now in free-fall as the economic crisis spreads like brushfire, writes Ambrose Evans-Pritchard.
So much for tirades against US greed
Most eyes are still on Washington, but the core danger is shifting across the Atlantic - it turns out that European regulators have allowed even greater use of "off-books" chicanery than the Americans.
Germany is now in the hot seat
Unless there is immediate intervention on every front by all the major powers acting in concert, we risk a disintegration of global finance within days. Nobody will be spared, unless they own gold bars."
I'm sure it will all be fine.
 

dubble-u-c

Dorkus Maximus
Russia have loaned Iceland $4bn. Which isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but Iceland has a population of 330,000. It's like giving Coventry $4bn. Or the US....$3trillion?

Anyway, pointless scaling-up for population aside, it's an interesting move by Russia. What are they up to, I wonder?

They are implementing their strategy to control the Arctic region and to destabilize NATO?
 
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matt b

Indexing all opinion
just watching newsnight- doesn't this spell the end to free-market captalism (or at least should it)?

Can the system that the UK/USA/IMF/World Bank have been espousing be re-created after this? will politicians be able to justify a future roll back to minimal regulation?

Especially when the banks are saying that the state should have got involved more quickly?

Digby Jones sounded delusional on monday when he was still spouting free market rhetoric (i felt).


vim- what's your overview of the situation?
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
just watching newsnight- doesn't this spell the end to free-market captalism (or at least should it)?

Can the system that the UK/USA/IMF/World Bank have been espousing be re-created after this? will politicians be able to justify a future roll back to minimal regulation?

Especially when the banks are saying that the state should have got involved more quickly?

A friend of mine just told me that of the 350,000 British people with accounts here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7657407.stm
Customers of the Icesave internet bank have been warned they will probably have to claim compensation for money held in their savings accounts.

The authorities in the UK are preparing for the bank's parent in Iceland, Landsbanki, to be declared insolvent

employees of the Daily Mail are seriously over-represented.

Which would be a terrible shame, naturally. But might make their editorials in the coming months more interesting.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I've got a question about interest rates. In the US the rate is 2% now right? And they're talking about a one percent cut to stimulate some spending. My question is, how significant is 0? Supposing the rate was a 0.5% and the Fed wanted to cut it by one percent in the same way; firstly, could they do that? Secondly, if they could what would it mean? Is there some massive kind of singularity that occurs as the rate passes through zero or is it just another lower point on a continuous scale of no more significance than any other point?
Would it ever be in the interest of a government and the related society to have a negative interest rate or is that just something that arises by accident when economies are going tits up? If negative interest rates are something that can arise then presumably the central bank ought to be able to set such a thing. Lowering interest rates is usually done to increase investment and I guess that there is no way to get people spending better than ensuring that money goes down in value as you hang on to it.
Anyway, lots of questions there about things I don't properly understand so any attempts at an answer would be welcome.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Customers of the Icesave internet bank have been warned they will probably have to claim compensation for money held in their savings accounts.

The authorities in the UK are preparing for the bank's parent in Iceland, Landsbanki, to be declared insolvent"
It's weird, all week I've been reading things saying "make sure you split your savings into chunks that are smaller than the guarantee - that way you will be fine". With Icesave going bang it turns out that it's more complex than that, although in theory you are guaranteed up to the total, some of that money is supposed to be guaranteed by the country from which the bank originates while the UK is only obliged to make up the difference. If the home country cannot meet its obligations then the UK government does not have to rectify this short-fall - in other words the UK is not guaranteeing the full amount if you have savings in a foreign bank. People have found this out to their cost today - in the Guardian it described this as "little known" - I'm not surprised, all the financial advice all week seems to have been written by people who didn't know about it so how is the man on the street supposed to know?
 

vimothy

yurp
I've got a question about interest rates. In the US the rate is 2% now right? And they're talking about a one percent cut to stimulate some spending. My question is, how significant is 0? Supposing the rate was a 0.5% and the Fed wanted to cut it by one percent in the same way; firstly, could they do that? Secondly, if they could what would it mean? Is there some massive kind of singularity that occurs as the rate passes through zero or is it just another lower point on a continuous scale of no more significance than any other point?

In order to change interest rates, the Fed performs open market operations through its trading desk, which is to say, it buys and sells treasury bills until the interest rates change in the direction of the target rate.

In nominal terms, the Fed can't push interest rates below zero. If a bank was to lend money at at a rate below zero, that bank would be in effect subsidising borrowers. That is, the bank wouldn't make any money, because for every loan it made, it would lose money.

In real terms -- which is to say, interest minus inflation -- interest rates can go below zero, although they are unlikely to remain there for long or to have much presence on the high street.

Would it ever be in the interest of a government and the related society to have a negative interest rate or is that just something that arises by accident when economies are going tits up?

Not really. Japan had interest rates of 0% in the '90s and it didn't induce much lending.

If negative interest rates are something that can arise then presumably the central bank ought to be able to set such a thing. Lowering interest rates is usually done to increase investment and I guess that there is no way to get people spending better than ensuring that money goes down in value as you hang on to it.

A central can set the target rate, and support that target rate with open market operations, i.e. buying and selling (anything in principal, but ususally treasury bills) until the interbank rates respond in kind. However, under the dreaded conditions of asset deflation -- which is what hit Japan in the '90s, and what we are looking at right now thanks to extreme de-leveraging -- banks will not necessarily respond at all. They may just horde any liquidity made available to them.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"In nominal terms, the Fed can't push interest rates below zero. If a bank was to lend money at at a rate below zero, that bank would be in effect subsidising borrowers. That is, the bank wouldn't make any money, because for every loan it made, it would lose money."
Yeah I know - but isn't that close to the thing they promised about dropping money from helicopters?

"In real terms -- which is to say, interest minus inflation -- interest rates can go below zero, although they are unlikely to remain there for long or to have much presence on the high street"
But isn't that what is happening in Zimbabwe where inflation is so high that money loses value as you hold it? I mean it's been like that for a while and it's having a direct affect on the high street.

"Not really. Japan had interest rates of 0% in the '90s and it didn't induce much lending."
I'm asking about spending not lending. In Zimbabwe money you get in the morning will be worth less in the evening so you spend it - could there ever be a way to manage that in a more controlled manner so that it is advantageous? The reason I ask is because I read about this which seems similar to a controlled type of negative interest

http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v105/__show_article/_a000105-000002.htm


"A central can set the target rate, and support that target rate with open market operations, i.e. buying and selling (anything in principal, but ususally treasury bills) until the interbank rates respond in kind. However, under the dreaded conditions of asset deflation -- which is what hit Japan in the '90s, and what we are looking at right now thanks to extreme de-leveraging -- banks will not necessarily respond at all. They may just horde any liquidity made available to them."
Yes, this is related to the TED spread thing isn't it? You would expect LIBOR to be closely related to the T-Bill rate but it's not - similarly whatever the Bank of England does to the nominal rate the banks aren't changing their own rates.
 

vimothy

yurp
just watching newsnight- doesn't this spell the end to free-market captalism (or at least should it)?

Can the system that the UK/USA/IMF/World Bank have been espousing be re-created after this? will politicians be able to justify a future roll back to minimal regulation?

Especially when the banks are saying that the state should have got involved more quickly?

Digby Jones sounded delusional on monday when he was still spouting free market rhetoric (i felt).


vim- what's your overview of the situation?

So, here's what I see -- the problem is located in the financial sector and formed at the intersection of monetary policy and banking and finance. There are components that are caused by bad regulation and poor oversight (the GSEs, e.g. -- Freddie and Fannie are perhaps the most heavily regulated companies in the world), de-regulation (Gramm's Commodity Futures Modernization Act, 2000, legitimising Credit Default Swaps, e.g.) and regulatory arbitrage (which is the sine qua non of securitisation). No one comes out of this looking particularly well, but no one comes out of this looking as bad as the private sector. From the perspective of regulation vs de-regulation, the real issue is not de-regulation per se, but lack of regulation of the 'shadow banking system' more generally.

In order to prevent financial crises impacting on the real economy, the formation of credit, asset and equity bubbles has been supported and encouraged by the Fed since the '80s, when it collaborated with banks who had lost money on loans to the developing world and allowed them to suspend mark-to-market valuation of their assets in a bid to keep them above water. In 1990 it persuaded the Saudis to rescue Citibank. In 1998 it bailed out the financial sector again, after the collapse of the (unregulated, uninsured, but nevertheless systemically important) Long Term Capital Management hedge fund, and cut rates to cope with losses in Russia and Asia. It cut rates following the tech and dot-com crash, and it cut rates again following 9/11. Basically the Fed has repeatedly bailed out the financial sector (and the real economy) with cheap money every time it looked like the bubble might burst, suppressed competitive pressure in the financial sector and ensured moral hazard in these markets.

In the 70s, commissions paid to stockbrokers were deregulated, biting into the comfortable living investment banks were making booking trades. And in the '90s, the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed, removing restrictions on mixing commercial and investment banking. This competition encouraged investment banks to move into new areas to increase margins: the principal outcome being the adoption of the ‘originate and distribute’ securitisation model and the use of extreme leverage. Asset backed securities and other structured finance instruments (MBS, CDO, CDO^2, etc) were thought to be more liquid because they are arranged as a kind of mini-corporation, such that the AAA (or some such) rated tranche has pretty much no risk of default, thanks to diversification of risk within the pool of assets backing the security and the protection offered by the junior tranches (equivalent to the protection offered bond-holders by equity holders in a traditional corporate structure) AND thanks to the ability of ABS to circumvent normal bankruptcy proceedings. In a bankruptcy, the owner of the ABS has preference over other investors to the pool of assets backing the security. So an ABS is normally thought to be a 'risk free' or low risk revenue stream, which is why ABS were so liquid -- in effect structured finance became international currency, and the US financial system reaped the rewards.

At the same time, a 'global savings glut', thanks to a rapidly developing third world (especially China) that doesn't spend as much as it earns, which has the reversed the expected direction of capital flows into the developed world (especially USA), added fuel to the cheap money fire. China is saving something like 50% of what it produces. Given the crises in Asia in the late ‘90s, it chose to invest in the US, lots of it in Freddie and Fannie. The Chinese have propped up the dollar to fund their development, but a side-effect has been to reduce the cost of borrowing and increase US household debt. As money and credit became so cheap, investors looked to increase their yields. Money poured into Alt-A and subprime lending, as lenders ceased to do due diligence on borrowers, as in any case, the loans would be securitised and sold off to someone else who would have to worry about it. Not only that, but it is self-evident that the banks and intermediaries who created these instruments didn’t properly understand them: if they did they would have sold all the tranches and would not now be in crisis. Bad loans were made, and large sections of the globe as well as advanced economies staked their futures on the bet that the house prices backing these securities would continue to rise…

As I see it now, the whole thing was and is Ponzi finance – irrational, fragile, consuming the economy in un-productive activity. Western states have lived beyond their means, restructuring their economies to take advantage of an irrational affect, and funded their trade deficits with over-priced financial instruments. (Not that securitisation is all bad, or that the rise of China is bad). And worst of all, it is leading now to extreme amounts of deleveraging, an asset deflationary spiral that may or may not be halted, massive increases in public debt, seizure in the corporate sector and an uncertain future in which credit underpinned by rising asset prices no longer drives economic growth.
 
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vimothy

yurp
Yeah I know - but isn't that close to the thing they promised about dropping money from helicopters?

The central banks don't control interest rates, they just set a target rate and try to get interest rates to that point via open market operations. The helicopter thing is supposed to be the solution to a Great Depression style deflationary shock. Bernanke means that in a deflationary spiral, the central bank could simply (and should have at the onset of the Great Depression) pumped liquidity into the system to prop up prices. In principal, the Fed should be able to buy so many treasury bills the banks have loads of liquidity and start lending again. In practice, this hasn't worked this time around.

But isn't that what is happening in Zimbabwe where inflation is so high that money loses value as you hold it? I mean it's been like that for a while and it's having a direct affect on the high street.

Sure, yeah, but I'm not sure how much of the problem in Zimbabwe is caused artificially low interest rates and how much is caused by the government printing money. The devaluation of currency obviously will have an effect on the high street, but a central bank trying to bring down interest rates to kick start lending and prevent deflation, that's another thing -- the current environment doesn't look to inflationary and that's pretty much what's going on.

I'm asking about spending not lending. In Zimbabwe money you get in the morning will be worth less in the evening so you spend it - could there ever be a way to manage that in a more controlled manner so that it is advantageous?

Well, the reason a central bank might want to reduce interest rates is precisely to increase lending and so increase spending and thus 'juice' the economy. The Fed has done it quite a bit because its mandate (unlike the Bank of England) is both to keep inflation low and to keep employment high.

Controlled currency devaluation can indeed be advantageous in at least two ways: 1, your exports are cheaper to buy, and 2, your debts are cheaper to pay off (if paid in that currency -- USA and China I'm looking at you).

Yes, this is related to the TED spread thing isn't it? You would expect LIBOR to be closely related to the T-Bill rate but it's not - similarly whatever the Bank of England does to the nominal rate the banks aren't changing their own rates.

Not nominal rates, target rates (nominal rates are interest rates not taking inflation into account), because central banks don't control the actual market rates of interest that banks charge to other lenders, they just have a rate that they want to get interbank lending to hit (which will knoock on in turn to high street lending) and use open market operations to try to achieve that. In extreme conditions (such as these) traditional open market operations have not proved too effective, because the banks eat any liquidity gien to them.
 

vimothy

yurp
By the way, I don't know if anyone has heard the accusation that the CRA and lending to minorities is to blame for the current financial crisis, but Brad Setser has some figures that totally refute it:

...I also thought we would agree that the “subprime boom and bust occurred largely outside the realm of government-sponsored programmes.” The Federal Reserves’ flow of funds data suggests – at least to me — that the GSEs were not the main source of demand for the private-label MBS and CMOs that absorbed many of the most risky kinds of mortgages at the peak of the housing boom. From the end of 2003 to the end of q2 2007, the GSE’s holdings of “corporate and foreign debt” (a line item that I think captures their holdings of MBS) increased from $277b to $501b – an increase of roughly $225b (See table L124, line 10). Over that time frame the stock of private label MBS – proxied by the mortgage holdings of ABS issuers — increased from $1024b to $3007b, an increase of nearly $2 trillion (See table L126, line 5). As Desmond notes, the Fed could and should have used its regulatory authority to slow this process – and also could and should have drawn more attention to the risks associated with increased financial opacity.​
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"The central banks don't control interest rates, they just set a target rate and try to get interest rates to that point via open market operations. The helicopter thing is supposed to be the solution to a Great Depression style deflationary shock. Bernanke means that in a deflationary spiral, the central bank could simply (and should have at the onset of the Great Depression) pumped liquidity into the system to prop up prices. In principal, the Fed should be able to buy so many treasury bills the banks have loads of liquidity and start lending again. In practice, this hasn't worked this time around."
"Not nominal rates, target rates (nominal rates are interest rates not taking inflation into account), because central banks don't control the actual market rates of interest that banks charge to other lenders, they just have a rate that they want to get interbank lending to hit (which will knoock on in turn to high street lending) and use open market operations to try to achieve that. In extreme conditions (such as these) traditional open market operations have not proved too effective, because the banks eat any liquidity gien to them."
OK then - let me restate my original question as, could a central bank set a target rate that is negative (even in theory)? Secondly, if it could, could it ever be desirable to do so? What about the Worgl stamp scrip thing, is that not effectively a case of a central bank artificially and deliberately setting and successfully creating a negative interest rate and if not how does it differ?

"Well, the reason a central bank might want to reduce interest rates is precisely to increase lending and so increase spending and thus 'juice' the economy. The Fed has done it quite a bit because its mandate (unlike the Bank of England) is both to keep inflation low and to keep employment high."
Yes I appreciate that lowering interest rates makes borrowing more attractive (and thus more lending happen) with the ultimate aim to increase spending. My question was about whether there is an obvious end (at zero) to that relationship between decreases in interest rate and increases in spending.
 

stevied

Well-known member
I don`t think you can understand the currrent financial crisis without connecting it to the politics of neoliberalism over the last 40 years or so.

On this note its well worth downloading the latest Doug Henwood Behind the News weekly radio show here :

http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Radio.html

Or

http://kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=28723

DH is an US author, broadcaster, and journalist. Among other things he edits the Left Business Observer and writes for the Nation Magazine. His guests on the show are Leo Panitch and Sam Gindin from York U in Canada. Lasts just under the hour and punctuated with three tracks from Brian Eno to boot. Show ends with Eno`s Baby`s on Fire - best music on a Show About Economics & Politics. Programme is billed as LP and SG on the financial crisis, neoliberalism, and the American empire - the end of what, if anything, exactly?

If you prefer to read, you can get this from LP and SG on Znet

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/18977

Thanks very much
 

vimothy

yurp
OK then - let me restate my original question as, could a central bank set a target rate that is negative (even in theory)? Secondly, if it could, could it ever be desirable to do so? What about the Worgl stamp scrip thing, is that not effectively a case of a central bank artificially and deliberately setting and successfully creating a negative interest rate and if not how does it differ?

In theory a central bank could set its target rate to a negative real rate. It could, in theory, even set its target rate to a negative nominal rate. However, it could never make banks lend a rate that will put them out of business simply by buying and selling bonds. In addition, very low rates of interest* have proved to be deadly, because they have fed asset inflationary bubbles, which in turn increased the amount of collateral available to borrow against, which in turn fed the spiral...

I'll have to read it a few more times, but it looks like your Worgl story is about creating a currency that holds its value, i.e. is anti-inflationary, like a gold/commodity standard, rather than a currency that devalues and so forces you to spend it (which would be anti-deflationary).

Yes I appreciate that lowering interest rates makes borrowing more attractive (and thus more lending happen) with the ultimate aim to increase spending. My question was about whether there is an obvious end (at zero) to that relationship between decreases in interest rate and increases in spending.
I don't think that there is an absolute end as such in terms of interest rate targets and currency devaluation (devalue the currency as much as you want and encourage spending and credit funded tangible asset purchases and other inflation hedges), but there is a limit to what a central bank can make commercial banks do.

*EDIT
 
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