The sacred cows
I mean this seems to have turned into being more about taking potshots at hipster touchstones / untouchables. Which is fun too of course. 
How's about -
Lee 'Sodding' Perry
Silver 'Bastard' Apples
Arthur 'Cunting' Russell
Alice 'Butterfingers' Coltrane
Maybe a new thread?
(of course I love much of work of the above, just have have to say that in case I inadvertently send out the wrong taste pheromones, phew)
How's about -
Lee 'Sodding' Perry
Silver 'Bastard' Apples
Arthur 'Cunting' Russell
Alice 'Butterfingers' Coltrane
Maybe a new thread?
(of course I love much of work of the above, just have have to say that in case I inadvertently send out the wrong taste pheromones, phew)
steve albini. there's a sacred cow. so he uses second world war microphones on the drums? big effing deal..
yes he has done many a poor job, he absolutely fucked up that band om, who did two good albums and then two really weak ones he produced.
Tentative Andy
I'm in the Meal Deal
Well fair enough, looking through the record artwork and packaging there does seem to be a consistent vein of self-parodic humour running through it, I can accept that. And I should also say that from the couple of interviews I've read with him on Blackdown etc he seems like a top bloke, so I wouldn't want any of my criticisms to be seen as personal attacks.
But I think the heart of my problem is that people tend to talk about Shackleton's work as if it offers some deep, rich, profound experience which is hard to find in other contemporary music - and well, I just don't see that. As I said before, to me his work employs the established signifiers of those qualities, but without adding anything significantly new to them. In your post, you're talking about a 'purpose' to all of the aspects of work, but what exactly would you say that purpose is? I can't seem to find any particularly interesting one.
I would never say his work is undanceable, btw. There are some great grooves in there. Boring and po-faced, well maybe on occasion, but again that's the not the main thrust of my criticism, and when push comes to shove I do like most of the tunes (I also distrust that sort of response because it seems to imply that me or anyone else who doesn't like his work doesn't 'get it', isn't listening attentively enough or adsorbing it on the right level. So the fault is ours and criticism is evaded. So on the contrary I'd reiterate that I reckon I do get it quite clearly, I'm just not sure that it ammounts to much).
Tentative Andy
I'm in the Meal Deal
Btw, from looking upthread a bit, I am aware that what I've said specifically about Shackleton is quite close to what people like luka and philblackpool have said is a problem with all core, classic-era dubstep. I actually don't buy that for a second, but I do think that in Shack's case the glove at least half-fits, as it were. (There are worse examples, of course, like Conga bloody Therapy by Hatcha ).
).Your criticism then is mostly with what you see as certain responses to the music. Which is fine, I might agree with you, but then if someone wants to get something valuable out of it why would that be a problem for you? If they can for a time buy into the idea that there is something deep there they can have that kind of experience. You don't buy it, no problem - maintain your poise, maybe with a big spliff and heavy system it could work, get your critical reserve out of the way and get down.
I don't know about this idea of 'employing signifiers', that's a strange view of art if you ask me, especially music, and especially 'dance' music. I don't think making stuff is always or should always be about slyly manipulating symbols in that way, unless you are absolutely stuck on some arch posturing tip. One of the points of physical / rhythmic music is that ultimately it bypasses that process. The most potent stuff is a more direct translation.
I think it's just on the whole the music he want to make, the effect he wants to create. In that sense I don't really have a criticism of it, I could give a fuck if criticism were evaded. You have your own response to it, what does it matter? If I don't like it I just won't listen to it again. Sometimes I think it's quite good stuff and I'd be happy to hear it more than some other things on a night out.
I don't know about this idea of 'employing signifiers', that's a strange view of art if you ask me, especially music, and especially 'dance' music. I don't think making stuff is always or should always be about slyly manipulating symbols in that way, unless you are absolutely stuck on some arch posturing tip. One of the points of physical / rhythmic music is that ultimately it bypasses that process. The most potent stuff is a more direct translation.
I think it's just on the whole the music he want to make, the effect he wants to create. In that sense I don't really have a criticism of it, I could give a fuck if criticism were evaded. You have your own response to it, what does it matter? If I don't like it I just won't listen to it again. Sometimes I think it's quite good stuff and I'd be happy to hear it more than some other things on a night out.
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Poet for Hire
Well-known member
Exactly, which is why my sacred cows for attack would be:
Simon Reynolds, if he hadn't already shot himself in the foot 20 times in the last couple of years.
&
Tim Finney
Both having that stunning ability of the upper middle class white male of tuning into the black working class musical zeitgeist of East London and policing its boundaries through treating music as a set of signifiers that do or do not comply with the ur-text. Its like nothing has happened since roland barthes or simon frith. Cheeeesus.
Tentative Andy
I'm in the Meal Deal
^^ Drive-by shooting ahoy. Although if you could actually expand that to back up your claims then I'd give it an interested look.
Massrock, as usual I'm running out of things to say already - I'm not criticising the fan's response as trying to understand it. In many ways I'd like to share it, but I just don't find the music all that exciting, and think there's lots more exciting things out there that deserve my attention. But that's life I guess. I didn't mean to make any of my criticisms sound nasty, in general I agree that it's best to be positive and concentrate on what you're into rather than worrying about what you don't. It's just that the point of this particular thread, esp as it developed, seemed to be that of a netural space where people could voice their misgivings about highly-rated artists. It's sort of cathartic, perhaps.
Massrock, as usual I'm running out of things to say already
- I'm not criticising the fan's response as trying to understand it. In many ways I'd like to share it, but I just don't find the music all that exciting, and think there's lots more exciting things out there that deserve my attention. But that's life I guess. I didn't mean to make any of my criticisms sound nasty, in general I agree that it's best to be positive and concentrate on what you're into rather than worrying about what you don't. It's just that the point of this particular thread, esp as it developed, seemed to be that of a netural space where people could voice their misgivings about highly-rated artists. It's sort of cathartic, perhaps.Catharsis, I can dig.
Actually I do know where you're coming from with the Shackleton thing, like it doesn't go far enough. Where's the real voodoo magic. Maybe you need to get yourself up a mountain in Morocco or something. But I also wonder if the dissatisfaction isn't partly because it doesn't display the 'correct' signifiers. It's still interesting enough that we are talking about it...
Actually I do know where you're coming from with the Shackleton thing, like it doesn't go far enough. Where's the real voodoo magic. Maybe you need to get yourself up a mountain in Morocco or something. But I also wonder if the dissatisfaction isn't partly because it doesn't display the 'correct' signifiers. It's still interesting enough that we are talking about it...
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UFO over easy
online mahjong
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
There's perhaps more than a grain of truth in this, but show me someone who writes about music better than Simon Reynolds or Tim Finney. And yer can't...
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
When did this thread become about "things that some people quite like but you don't"?
Kode 9's about the closest I've seen to a sacred cow in the last few pages - if he announced that from now on hyperdub was only going to release psy-trance, there'd be fifteen blog posts about how psy-trance is unjustly neglected as an offshoot of the 'nuum and is in fact the authentic working-class sound of south london by the next morning.
Actually, I guess 'the authentic sound of east london ghetto yout' is a bit of a sacred cow around here? "It's the sound of roads, if you don't like it you must be some sort of CLOSET INDIE KID!!!"
Kode 9's about the closest I've seen to a sacred cow in the last few pages - if he announced that from now on hyperdub was only going to release psy-trance, there'd be fifteen blog posts about how psy-trance is unjustly neglected as an offshoot of the 'nuum and is in fact the authentic working-class sound of south london by the next morning.
Actually, I guess 'the authentic sound of east london ghetto yout' is a bit of a sacred cow around here? "It's the sound of roads, if you don't like it you must be some sort of CLOSET INDIE KID!!!"
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
Fuck the Roads sometimes. Y'know? Yeah, 'The Ghetto Youth' make some good songs. But they also make some absolute shit too.
benjybars
village elder.
pretty much.
UFO over easy
online mahjong
'obnoxious dismissals and personal attacks'
best one so far, martyn is apparently 'nobody'..
i think smug is one of the best words ever, it's wonderful to say, it feels exactly the way a word like that should when you say it out loud
bloke down my road, don't know his name make an effort to say hello to him just ignores me. obv thinks he's big.
UFO over easy
online mahjong
yeah he's overrated
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
Lee Perry IS a sacred cow. Sorry, I don't see all the value. King Tubby registered immediately. Perry sounded like what it is, dude high on weed fucking around with a mixing board.
Perry = Rza, but Tubby = Dre. Yeah, Perry may have 'originated' the dub. But he was never as nice as people made him out to be. He just happened to help make some great singles, and be crazy. Tubby took songs that were good, and made them into ART. "Skylarking Dub" alone!
Alibini is the weirdest of all fucking persons to accuse of Sacred Cow, because, he's a producer with a musical aggenda. Not just his engineering, but, he has a specific music field he really adores, and then other people try to grab him for the name. Now, obviously, he is a sacred cow for critics. But here's a question...
There are two kinds of bands Albini really works with. Ones he relates to: Jesus Lizard, Zeni Geva, Slint, Neurosis, etc. and bands he works for: Pixies, Bush, Joanna Newsom, Zao, etc. There are a few bands who skate the line, like Nirvana, but he generally has these two types; But is Albini still the sacred cow when some of the bands he really rides for are usually the ones who aren't instantly loved?
Perry = Rza, but Tubby = Dre. Yeah, Perry may have 'originated' the dub. But he was never as nice as people made him out to be. He just happened to help make some great singles, and be crazy. Tubby took songs that were good, and made them into ART. "Skylarking Dub" alone!
Alibini is the weirdest of all fucking persons to accuse of Sacred Cow, because, he's a producer with a musical aggenda. Not just his engineering, but, he has a specific music field he really adores, and then other people try to grab him for the name. Now, obviously, he is a sacred cow for critics. But here's a question...
There are two kinds of bands Albini really works with. Ones he relates to: Jesus Lizard, Zeni Geva, Slint, Neurosis, etc. and bands he works for: Pixies, Bush, Joanna Newsom, Zao, etc. There are a few bands who skate the line, like Nirvana, but he generally has these two types; But is Albini still the sacred cow when some of the bands he really rides for are usually the ones who aren't instantly loved?