Going it alone

[sus]

what I object to is the idea that he's some kind of singular pop genius or somehow better than whatever he's drawing on

I tend to think both are usually true—Beatles, Kanye, Bowie, whoever.

Where there are two types of greats: those who come up with the formal and aestshetics innovations, and those who can appropriate and synthesize and make a total package. No one thinks Beatles were the first to run a guitar backwards; it's the way they accommodated and synergised it

 

[luka]

i just wanted to melt the records down, not cause any lasting physical harm to his fans

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

that's a step too far even for me

good thing you're here to rein my worst impulses in

 

[sus]

"total package music" which I think is supposed to be the role of pop

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I mean, I'm on record that Bowie is almost uniformly trash

I recognize his genius at being a pop star - chameleonic self-reinvention, image management, self-mythologization, etc

 

[sus]

which is why it also comes with fashion, personality, image

there are few cultural products as fully bundled and sensorily complete, it's incredible really when you think about it

 

[boxedjoy]

The Berlin trilogy stuff is so neglible to me that it doesn't even occur to me when I think about him. "Sound And Vision" and "Heroes" have choruses I know from their ubiquity but it just all does nothing to excite me

 

[luka]

i always wonder in cases like this how it might be possible to have a productive discussion around this sort of situation. the sort of situation in which one party is objectively wrong but cant see it. how can we turn it to good use?

 

[Leo]

there's an odd catch-22 with the Berlin records: I love the sound of "low", but people say "well, that was all Eno's doing"...yet Eno wasn't doing anything as interesting as that on his own solo records at that time. Bowie must have has something to do with it, maybe he contributed more to the collaboration than we credit him for.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

to deny his genius at being a pop star you would have to rewrite history

but you don't have to rewrite history to say his music is trash (not the good kind of trash) that sucks the lifeblood out of interesting things and makes them wan and dull

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

maybe he contributed more to the collaboration than we credit him for

it was very much collaborative, as well as with yr Visconti/Alomar etc usual suspects, plus whoever else was on hand

 

[luka]

i always wonder in cases like this how it might be possible to have a productive discussion around this sort of situation. the sort of situation in which one party is objectively wrong but cant see it. how can we turn it to good use?

how do you make it fun and productive for everyone including the people who are totally wrong? how does it move on from
no youre wrong no you are no you are?

these are questions i ask myself

 

[boxedjoy]

Madonna* is the obvious riposte to Bowie - fashion, re-invention, great songs, controversy that changed and improved culture.

(*pretend everything after 2007 didn't happen for this to be 100% true of course)

 

[boxedjoy]

Nelly Furtardo did the reinvention thing well when she came back out with the Timbaland-collab stuff. Bowie going disco makes me think of when Little Mix chased the reggaeton chart trends.

 

[IdleRich]

the idea isn't that they're "competitive"

it's that when you hear actual Philly soul you're like why would I ever listen to this pale, limpid take on it

some people may prefer the pale, limpid take

But I don't think it is a take on that and people didn't really think of it that way. I guess there is that thing when he does Golden Years on Soul Train but apart from that....
In the same way that Heroes despite referencing Neu doesn't sound like any of the overwrought vocal ballads they did.
I'll agree that the Young Americans era is his weakest though (off the top of my head).

 

[Benny Bunter]

I break it down like this

Space oddity - meh
Man who sold the world - not bad
Ziggy - Godlike genius
Aladdin Sane - godlike genius
Diamond dogs - godlike genius
Young Americans - meh, couple of good tunes
Station to station - godlike genius
Low - The best of them all
Heroes - godlike genius
Lodger - meh
Scary monsters - mostly great
Lets dance - 1st side godlike, 2nd side meh
Everything that came after - not worth bothering with

That said I'm perfectly fine with dissensus being anti bowie. In fact i think it probably should be.

As you were...

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Madonna* is the obvious riposte to Bowie - fashion, re-invention, great songs, controversy that changed and improved culture

you're on much shakier ground there

she's basically Bowie MK II

and almost significantly worse on the appropriation/influence scale i.e. "Vogue" let alone her cringe later career moves

her entire origin story is straight white girl using the gay NY underground to catapult herself to mainstream stardom

which you know, is what it is, but as per the other thread see how Levan/Hardy/Tee Scott/Jim Burgess etc wound up in comparison

 

[Leo]

i always wonder in cases like this how it might be possible to have a productive discussion around this sort of situation. the sort of situation in which one party is objectively wrong but cant see it. how can we turn it to good use?

you could cross-post this in the Election 2020 thread and it'd fit...

 

[boxedjoy]

and almost significantly worse on the appropriation/influence scale i.e. "Vogue" let alone her cringe later career moves

oh 100%. It doesn't matter if you're black or white, if you're a boy or a girl - yeah OK privilege is a mighty drug. The difference is that Vogue is a better song. Bowie would have done well to try his hand at piano house.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

people didn't really think of it that way

you may not but clearly some people do since we're talking about it

I'm certainly not against rock musicians making dance music

that's obviously a huge element of the post-disco era and a slew of good to amazing records came out of it

I don't want the records to be exact copies of what they're a take on, I just want them to be good

and Bowie's are not