Typical.
Election 2020
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
he's definitely up there
Jefferson for me, the absolute worst
almost all the Founding Fathers were hypocrites but that dude took it to an entirely different level
the rabid champion of personal liberty, except for his slaves
he said he meant to free them but he ran up such debt living extremely lavishly in France that he was never able to
fathering a bunch of children on his teenage sex slave Sally Hemings
the fucking worst, just an insanely selfish, hypocritical, sexual predator
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
obv pretty much all the Southern Founding Fathers, and most of the Northerners, look v bad on slavery and race from 2020
but Jefferson is yeah just on another level with it
but Jefferson is yeah just on another level with it
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Andrew Johnson is another one
terrible President, pro-slavery, almost caused a Constitutional crisis with his efforts to soften Reconstruction
as personally responsible as anyone for the absolute fucking mess of the Jim Crow South in the century between the Civil War and Civil Rights
terrible President, pro-slavery, almost caused a Constitutional crisis with his efforts to soften Reconstruction
as personally responsible as anyone for the absolute fucking mess of the Jim Crow South in the century between the Civil War and Civil Rights
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
that could be true
certainly a great general who had the personal resolve to make many impossibly tough decisions
as you probably know many people called him a butcher at the time but he almost certainly helped end the war more quickly
I know his Civil War record pretty well but I don't really know much about the rest of his life
or, I know he failed a bunch of times in business and struggled with alcohol, then rose to the very height of the times in the USCW
it's a compelling narrative if nothing else
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sus
Moderator
A relatively progressive American Indian policy. Serious action against the Klan leading to their collapse. Some major bills signed expanding the civil rights of black citizens. All basically undone by Hayes.
Have been meaning to read his memoir
sus
Moderator
One of the most morally upright empires in human history—up there with many of the Muslim empires in Europe. Much better record than the Brits.
nilprenia
Well-known member
Don't pull my leg
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
idk if I'd go as far as @suspendedreason, and "morally upright" are not the words I would use to refer to any empire
but he is right that in terms of empires, the U.S. is far from the worst
this is just how empires are
one of the most depressing things about studying (civilized) history is the realization that it's basically just an endless succession of shitty empires
nilprenia
Well-known member
It's kind of farcical to measure things against each other in that way
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
it's reality
if it's not clear - you're new - I'm the opposite of pro-empires
but it is historically true
(and if you/anyone thinks the future is likely to be better China would like to have a word)
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I'd agree the U.S. has an internal sickness - racial slavery, more or less our entire history with Native Americans, etc
but the only reason European colonial powers don't have the same internal sickness is that they outsourced all that unpleasantness
which is now coming back to haunt them, anyway
but the only reason European colonial powers don't have the same internal sickness is that they outsourced all that unpleasantness
which is now coming back to haunt them, anyway
nilprenia
Well-known member
nah I think it's a non-sequitur. you can say, oh this empire killed this many more people, oh no but america did this thing which had a more harmful long-term effect, oh but this one also did that but in a different and worse way, and so on back and forth and at the end of the day I'm still right. sharia for america
linebaugh
Well-known member
can I get the skinny on the muslim empires?
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I used to think like that when I was younger
American history is full of awful stuff. it's also full of Americans pushing back against that awful stuff.
if you only see the former it's a reductionist view of America
and of people in general, since basically all history is full of awful stuff and people push back against awful stuff
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Al-Andalus was a relatively enlightened mixed society, tho it varies depending which Muslim dynasty was in charge at a given point
iirc toward the middle and end of its run is what you're looking for
Italo-Norman Sicily - ruled by Catholics, but mixed Catholic-Byzantine-Muslim - is another, religious toleration and cultural intermixing
nilprenia
Well-known member
yeah I dunno. I don't think everybody is terrible, I even like most people, but I find a lot of people's behavior completely inexplicable. The banal evil of working with someone who openly believes in abhorrent racist ideas and then pretending you like them in front of everybody in the name of tolerance is not something I've gotten used to or figured out how to deal with
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
that's not say all Muslim empires were relatively enlightened, the Ottomans were pretty fucking terrible
the - initially pagan, later mostly Muslim - Mongols were surprisingly tolerant once they'd conquered you
albeit the conquering tended to involve apocalyptic devastation, mountains of skulls, etc
the - initially pagan, later mostly Muslim - Mongols were surprisingly tolerant once they'd conquered you
albeit the conquering tended to involve apocalyptic devastation, mountains of skulls, etc