padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Who's the least admirable? Jackson?
he's definitely up there

Jefferson for me, the absolute worst

almost all the Founding Fathers were hypocrites but that dude took it to an entirely different level

the rabid champion of personal liberty, except for his slaves

he said he meant to free them but he ran up such debt living extremely lavishly in France that he was never able to

fathering a bunch of children on his teenage sex slave Sally Hemings

the fucking worst, just an insanely selfish, hypocritical, sexual predator
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
obv pretty much all the Southern Founding Fathers, and most of the Northerners, look v bad on slavery and race from 2020

but Jefferson is yeah just on another level with it
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Andrew Johnson is another one

terrible President, pro-slavery, almost caused a Constitutional crisis with his efforts to soften Reconstruction

as personally responsible as anyone for the absolute fucking mess of the Jim Crow South in the century between the Civil War and Civil Rights
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Grant's administration was nothing special. Grant as human being was.
that could be true

certainly a great general who had the personal resolve to make many impossibly tough decisions

as you probably know many people called him a butcher at the time but he almost certainly helped end the war more quickly

I know his Civil War record pretty well but I don't really know much about the rest of his life

or, I know he failed a bunch of times in business and struggled with alcohol, then rose to the very height of the times in the USCW

it's a compelling narrative if nothing else
 
Last edited:

sus

Moderator
I know his Civil War record pretty well but I don't really know much about the rest of his life

A relatively progressive American Indian policy. Serious action against the Klan leading to their collapse. Some major bills signed expanding the civil rights of black citizens. All basically undone by Hayes.

Have been meaning to read his memoir
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Don't pull my leg
idk if I'd go as far as @suspendedreason, and "morally upright" are not the words I would use to refer to any empire

but he is right that in terms of empires, the U.S. is far from the worst

this is just how empires are

one of the most depressing things about studying (civilized) history is the realization that it's basically just an endless succession of shitty empires
 
  • Like
Reactions: sus

nilprenia

Well-known member
idk if I'd go as far as @suspendedreason, and "morally upright" are not the words I would use to refer to any empire

but he is right that in terms of empires, the U.S. is far from the worst

this is just how empires are

one of the most depressing things about studying (civilized) history is the realization that it's basically just an endless succession of shitty empires
It's kind of farcical to measure things against each other in that way
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I'd agree the U.S. has an internal sickness - racial slavery, more or less our entire history with Native Americans, etc

but the only reason European colonial powers don't have the same internal sickness is that they outsourced all that unpleasantness

which is now coming back to haunt them, anyway
 

nilprenia

Well-known member
nah I think it's a non-sequitur. you can say, oh this empire killed this many more people, oh no but america did this thing which had a more harmful long-term effect, oh but this one also did that but in a different and worse way, and so on back and forth and at the end of the day I'm still right. sharia for america
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
at the end of the day I'm still right
I used to think like that when I was younger

American history is full of awful stuff. it's also full of Americans pushing back against that awful stuff.

if you only see the former it's a reductionist view of America

and of people in general, since basically all history is full of awful stuff and people push back against awful stuff
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
can I get the skinny on the muslim empires?
Al-Andalus was a relatively enlightened mixed society, tho it varies depending which Muslim dynasty was in charge at a given point

iirc toward the middle and end of its run is what you're looking for

Italo-Norman Sicily - ruled by Catholics, but mixed Catholic-Byzantine-Muslim - is another, religious toleration and cultural intermixing
 

nilprenia

Well-known member
I used to think like that when I was younger

American history is full of awful stuff. it's also full of Americans pushing back against that awful stuff.

if you only see the former it's a reductionist view of America

and of people in general, since basically all history is full of awful stuff and people push back against awful stuff
yeah I dunno. I don't think everybody is terrible, I even like most people, but I find a lot of people's behavior completely inexplicable. The banal evil of working with someone who openly believes in abhorrent racist ideas and then pretending you like them in front of everybody in the name of tolerance is not something I've gotten used to or figured out how to deal with
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
that's not say all Muslim empires were relatively enlightened, the Ottomans were pretty fucking terrible

the - initially pagan, later mostly Muslim - Mongols were surprisingly tolerant once they'd conquered you

albeit the conquering tended to involve apocalyptic devastation, mountains of skulls, etc
 
Top